Definite product of zero and infinity?

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    Infinity Product Zero
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of the product of zero and infinity, exploring whether it can be defined as a finite quantity. Participants examine this idea through various mathematical and physical contexts, including calculus, the ideal gas law, and quantum mechanics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether the product of zero and infinity can be defined as a finite quantity, suggesting that limits approaching these values may yield different results.
  • One participant provides examples of functions approaching zero and infinity, noting that the limit of their product can be finite or undefined depending on the functions involved.
  • Another participant references Boyle's law, questioning the validity of applying it at extremes of pressure and volume, particularly when one approaches infinity and the other approaches zero.
  • Concerns are raised about the physical meaning of infinite pressure and whether it is sensible to discuss such concepts in a physical context.
  • Some participants argue that zero pressure does not imply infinite volume, while others assert that the ideal gas law may not hold at these extremes.
  • Discussion includes the concept of vacuum fluctuations in quantum mechanics, with some participants suggesting that vacuums contain infinite energy, while others express skepticism about this claim.
  • There are debates about the mathematical treatment of limits involving zero and infinity, with some participants asserting that such products are not defined or that they yield different results under various conditions.
  • Participants explore the implications of manipulating physical constants and whether limits can be treated as variables in certain contexts.
  • Questions arise regarding the validity of certain mathematical manipulations and whether they adhere to established mathematical principles.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the topic, with no clear consensus reached. Disagreements persist regarding the physical and mathematical implications of the product of zero and infinity, as well as the validity of applying certain laws at extreme values.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on definitions of infinity and zero, the context of physical laws at extremes, and unresolved mathematical steps in the manipulations discussed. The discussion reflects a variety of interpretations and assumptions that are not universally accepted.

  • #31
These do have uses in applied mathematics and are called infinitesimals, rigorously dt is a 1 form, and rearranging antonios equation yields a 1 form = a function which is not permitted, you've canceled things that can't be canelled, and your manipulations omit many equalities that need to be satisfied, you should always write out in full.

a/c is (1/c)dv/dt

I don't see how you took any of the steps above without implicitly assuming some things that you've not told us, such as somehow deciding that dv/c = 1, which is amazing as c is a constant.
 
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  • #32
Is the following limits acceptable in mathematics?

\lim_{dt\rightarrow 0} \frac {1}{dt} = \infty

\lim_{dt\rightarrow \infty} \frac{1}{dt} = 0

\lim_{dt\rightarrow a} \frac {1}{dt} = \frac {1}{a}
 
  • #33
The last one is invalid if a = 0...
 
  • #34
Thanks. But if a=0, it is just the first one again. Physically speaking, can absolute time (absolute spacetime) ever be zero? Spacetime is not defined at the singularity.
 
  • #35
Try reading Segal's original papers to see the formalization of zero time.
 
  • #36
Thanks. I will start looking where I can get hold of this paper.
 

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