Derivation from Landau and Liffshitz, vol 6

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation presented in section 134 of Landau and Lifshitz, vol 6, specifically focusing on the energy-momentum tensor for an ideal fluid and the associated mathematical expressions. Participants are exploring the implications of different metric conventions and their effects on the derivation, including the signs of terms in the equations.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion regarding the derivation, particularly about the sign of the pressure term and the normalization of the four-velocity.
  • Another participant notes that different authors may use different conventions for the metric, which can lead to discrepancies in signs.
  • Some participants discuss the implications of using the (-+++) versus the (+---) metric convention, with one noting that in the (-+++) convention, the norm squared of time-like vectors is negative.
  • A participant mentions that in the Russian edition of the text, the signs align correctly, suggesting a possible typo in the English version.
  • There is a debate about the preference for metric conventions, with some participants arguing for the (-+++) convention while others prefer (+---), citing personal experiences and the potential for sign errors.
  • One participant references Gerard 't Hooft's opinion on the superiority of the (-+++) convention, while others express their own preferences and experiences with both conventions.
  • Several participants share their methods for keeping track of conventions in their studies, including using different symbols for intervals based on the convention used.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on which metric convention is superior, with multiple competing views expressed regarding the implications of each convention on the derivation and their personal preferences.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the discussion is complicated by the use of different metric conventions, which can lead to confusion regarding signs in equations. There is also mention of a potential typo in the English edition of the text compared to the Russian edition.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for those studying general relativity, particularly in understanding the implications of different metric conventions and their effects on mathematical derivations in theoretical physics.

Geofleur
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I have starting working through section 134 of Landau and Lifshitz, vol 6, and it seems I have entered some kind of twilight zone where all my math/physics skills have left me :cry:

The derivation starts with the energy-momentum tensor for an ideal fluid:

## T^{ik} = wu^i u^k - p g^{ik} ##,

where the Latin indices range from 0 to 3 (Greek indices would range from 1 to 3), ## w ## is the enthalpy, ## u^i ## is component i of the four-velocity, ## p ## is the pressure, and ## g^{ik} ## is the component ik of the Minkowski metric (with signature ## g^{00} = 1 ##). The derivation also employs the equation for conservation of particle number:

## \frac{\partial}{\partial x^i} \left( nu^i \right) = 0 ##,

where ## n ## is the proper number density of the particles. We lower the first upper index of ## T^{ik} ## using the metric tensor as

## T_{i}^{\ k} = g_{im}T^{mk} = wg_{im}u^m u^k - p g_{im} g^{mk} = wu_i u^k -p \delta_i^k. ##

Now we take the four divergence and set it equal to zero,

## \frac{\partial T_i^{\ k}}{\partial x^k} = \frac{\partial}{\partial x^k} \left[ wu_i u^k \right] - \frac{\partial p}{\partial x^i} = u_i \frac{\partial}{\partial x^k}\left[ w u^k \right] + w u^k \frac{\partial u_i}{\partial x^k} - \frac{\partial p}{\partial x^i} = 0 ##.

And here is where the trouble starts, because Landafshitz has the above equation with a plus sign next to the pressure term, not a minus. But it gets worse! In the next step, they say that ## u_i u^i = -1 ##. Now I must be really confused, because I thought that ## (u^i ) = \gamma (1,\mathbf{v}) ##, so that

## u_i u^i = u_0 u^0 + u_\alpha u^{\alpha} = \gamma^2 (1 - v^2) = 1 ##,

where ## \gamma ## is the Lorentz factor, and the speed of light has been set to unity.

Can anyone out there help me get this mess straightened out?
 
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Geofleur said:
Latin indices range from 0 to 4
What? 5 dimensional space time? :wink:

Some authors use different conventions for the metric (+---) or (-+++). The difference is the appearance of some signs here and there. You should check what convention is being adopted in each text you are dealing with.
 
Orodruin said:
What? 5 dimensional space time? :wink:

Ah yes, thanks, I made the appropriate edit.

Orodruin said:
Some authors use different conventions for the metric (+---) or (-+++). The difference is the appearance of some signs here and there. You should check what convention is being adopted in each text you are dealing with.

I did check this - in a footnote at the beginning of the chapter, the say that the metric has diagonal (1,-1,-1,-1), which is what I'm used to. At any rate, I can't see how the magnitude of the four velocity could end up negative o_O
 
Geofleur said:
At any rate, I can't see how the magnitude of the four velocity could end up negative
In the (-+++) convention, the norm squared of all time-like vectors are negative. Admittedly, I do not like this convention and usually use (+---), but it is good to know about it.
 
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I see - and when I worked it out just now it did come out that way! I knew that the Minkowski norm is not positive definite, but a negative magnitude of the four velocity is just weird. Also, it isn't consistent with their footnote...

I am not sure how that would help the issue with the pressure derivative having the wrong sign.
 
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OK, this is unbelievable. Out of all 10 volumes, I happen to also have the version of 6 that is in Russian. When I turn to the same page where the problems occur, the signs all make sense! In the Russian edition, ## u^i u_i = 1 ## and there is a negative sign in front of the pressure term. Здорово!
 
I also prefer the convention (+---), but books are all over the place and you must be very careful about the convention used and the signs. No less that Gerard 't Hooft has argued that only the (-+++) is worthwhile, and that (+---) is idiotic and leads only to sign errors (see, for example, the intro to http://www.staff.science.uu.nl/~hooft101/lectures/genrel_2013.pdf). Of course, this being purely a convention, neither I nor you have to follow t'Hooft's opinion.
 
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Personally, I would do many more sign errors with the (-+++) convention ... There is just something with the four-momentum squared being minus the mass squared which is unappealing to me.
 
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Sorry for the off topic but since the question is resolved and it seems to be just a typo, I don't feel too guilty. I find it interesting that people here prefer (+---). I thought, for some reason, that relativists in general prefer (-+++) and the other convention is preferred by 'particle theorists who don't understand relativity'.
 
  • #10
Well, in the same sense as the (-+++) convention is preferred by relativists who don't understand particle theory.
 
  • #11
martinbn said:
I find it interesting that people here prefer (+---). I thought, for some reason, that relativists in general prefer (-+++)
I think it also has to do with which convention you're first introduced to. I started off SR with Schutz, and after going through Sean Carroll's notes on GR, I just can't get out of the (-+++) habit. Usually when I see vectors with positive norms in relativity I first think "so we're dealing with spacelike vectors huh", and it often takes me a while to realize that the (+---) convention is being used instead.
 
  • #12
Orodruin said:
Well, in the same sense as the (-+++) convention is preferred by relativists who don't understand particle theory.

:) Yes, but they do relativity, not understanding other areas is fine.

PWiz said:
I think it also has to do with which convention you're first introduced to. I started off SR with Schutz, and after going through Sean Carroll's notes on GR, I just can't get out of the (-+++) habit. Usually when I see vectors with positive norms in relativity I first think "so we're dealing with spacelike vectors huh", and it often takes me a while to realize that the (+---) convention is being used instead.

I don't know. I used to like the (+---) but then I realized I was wrong and the (-+++) is the 'right' way to go.
 
  • #13
martinbn said:
I don't know. I used to like the (+---) but then I realized I was wrong and the (-+++) is the 'right' way to go.

To throw in a famous quote: This is not even wrong.
For things which are conventions there can be no wrong or right. They are physically indistinguishable and only a matter of philosophical debate and personal taste - much like debating QM interpretations, which I also find utterly repetitive and not bringing any new actual scientific value.
 
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  • #14
I guess the intended tone was not clear, it was a joke, I should have put some of those silly smilies not just the quotes' '
 
  • #15
Most of the quantum field theory texts use the +--- convention. It has been with us since Schweber and Bjorken/Drell. However, this mostly minus one has the disadvantage that you cannot go to 5,6,.. space-time dimensions. That is why if helps to use +++- throughout.
 
  • #16
The (-+++) convention is infinitely better if you work in a variable number of dimensions. It minimizes the number of ##(-1)^d## you have to write and keep track of.
 
  • #17
In my personal study I tend to write the interval as ##ds## when I am using the (-+++) convention and ##d\tau## when I am using (+---). That helps me keep things straight in my mind. I haven't seen anyone else do that, so there is probably a problem with it.
 
  • #18
DaleSpam said:
In my personal study I tend to write the interval as ##ds## when I am using the (-+++) convention and ##d\tau## when I am using (+---). That helps me keep things straight in my mind. I haven't seen anyone else do that, so there is probably a problem with it.
I do the same thing, and have seen no problems with that convention.
 
  • #19
DaleSpam said:
In my personal study I tend to write the interval as ##ds## when I am using the (-+++) convention and ##d\tau## when I am using (+---). That helps me keep things straight in my mind. I haven't seen anyone else do that, so there is probably a problem with it.
I'm pretty sure Susskind does that in his lectures.
 
  • #20
SlowThinker said:
I'm pretty sure Susskind does that in his lectures.
That may be where I picked it up. I have seen those lectures several years ago.
 
  • #21
Geofleur said:
OK, this is unbelievable. Out of all 10 volumes, I happen to also have the version of 6 that is in Russian. When I turn to the same page where the problems occur, the signs all make sense! In the Russian edition, ## u^i u_i = 1 ## and there is a negative sign in front of the pressure term. Здорово!

I just discovered the Spanish translation which starts with the opposite convention (!) ## g_{00} = -1, g_{11} = g_{22} = g_{33} = +1 ##. Then indeed, ## u^i u_i = -1 ## and there's a plus in the pressure term. I don't have the original Russian - where you claim the metric is opposite (mostly minus), but I find it odd that people who translate books make changes to the original content.

upload_2015-10-24_14-18-23.png


upload_2015-10-24_14-22-16.png
 
  • #22
In the German 5th edition (1991) everything is correct and in the west-coast formalism.

I personally use the west-coast formalism, because when I started working on the Diploma thesis at GSI, my professor told me: "You can and should do whatever you like, but you must use the west-coast convention, because that's what's done within the institute." This is good, because then at least within your institute you don't have this trouble with different conventions.

I don't see an advantage of the one or the other convention. Perhaps the east-coast convention has a little advantage when it comes to Wick rotations in QFT. The only "nogo convention" I'm aware of is to use ##\eta_{\mu \nu}=\delta_{\mu \nu}## and ##x_4=x^4=\mathrm{i} c t##. Then you get totally confused, whether you work in real or imaginary time (because the real-time formalism becomes the one with an imaginary time component ;-)).
 

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