Derivation of torque on general current distribution

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of torque on a general current distribution, specifically focusing on simplifying an integral expression involving current densities. The scope includes mathematical reasoning and technical explanations related to vector calculus and current distributions in physics.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation, Mathematical reasoning, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks to simplify a complex integral expression involving current densities and their cross products.
  • Another participant questions the properties of the current densities, suggesting that their divergence is zero and inquires about their curls.
  • A third participant asserts that both current densities represent steady currents and confirms that the second expression is correct without errors.
  • Integration by parts is mentioned as a potential method to approach the problem, with a participant providing a related mathematical expression.
  • One participant expresses uncertainty about the initial steps of the integration by parts process and requests clarification.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

There is no consensus on the equality of the two expressions being discussed. Some participants express uncertainty about the correctness of the simplification, while others defend the validity of the second expression.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the need for clarity regarding the properties of the current densities involved, particularly concerning their divergence and curl. There are unresolved aspects regarding the integration by parts technique that participants are attempting to clarify.

user1139
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How do I simplify the expression

$$\int_{\mathcal{V'}}\int_{\mathcal{V}}\frac{\mathbf{\mathrm{x}}\times[\mathbf{\mathrm{J_1(\mathbf{\mathrm{x'}})}}[\mathbf{\mathrm{J_2(x)}}\cdot(\mathbf{\mathrm{x}-\mathbf{\mathrm{x'}}})]]}{|\mathbf{\mathrm{x}}-\mathbf{\mathrm{x'}}|^3}\,\mathrm{d^3}x\,\mathrm{d^3}x'$$

to

$$\int_{\mathcal{V'}}\int_{\mathcal{V}}\frac{\mathbf{\mathrm{J_2(\mathbf{\mathrm{x}})}}\times\mathbf{\mathrm{J_1(\mathbf{\mathrm{x'}})}}}{|\mathbf{\mathrm{x}}-\mathbf{\mathrm{x'}}|}\,\mathrm{d^3}x\,\mathrm{d^3}x'$$

I was stuck after rewriting the first expression as

$$-\int_{\mathcal{V'}}\int_{\mathcal{V}}[\mathbf{\mathrm{x}}\times\mathbf{\mathrm{J_1(\mathbf{\mathrm{x'}})}}]
\left[\mathbf{\mathrm{J_2(x)}\cdot\nabla\left(\frac{1}{|\mathbf{\mathrm{x}-\mathbf{\mathrm{x'}}}|}\right)} \right] \,\mathrm{d^3}x\,\mathrm{d^3}x'$$
 
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What do we know about the current densities ##\mathbf{J_1},\mathbf{J_2}##? I guess that their divergence is zero that is $$\nabla\cdot\mathbf{J_1}=\nabla\cdot\mathbf{J_2}=0$$. Anything else do we know? Do we know anything about $$\nabla\times\mathbf{J_1},\nabla\times\mathbf{J_2}$$
My thinking tells me that the two expressions aren't equal in the general case. Perhaps you have some typos? Maybe you forgot to put a ##\nabla## operator somewhere in the second expression?
 
Both current densities are that of steady current. There was no information on the curls of the current densities. I checked again and the second expression does not have any error.
 
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You have ##\vec{\nabla} \cdot \vec{J}_1=\vec{\nabla} \cdot \vec{J}_2=0##. Then you have
$$\vec{\nabla} \frac{1}{|\vec{x}-\vec{x}'|}=-\vec{\nabla}' \frac{1}{|\vec{x}-\vec{x}'|}.$$
Then you can use integration by parts wrt. to the integral over ##\vec{x}'##...
 
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I am not sure of the first step. Would you mind writing out the integration by parts?
 
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