Determing Boiling Point elevations in lab

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Discussion Overview

The discussion focuses on the determination of boiling point elevation in a laboratory setting, specifically regarding discrepancies between predicted and measured values for a sodium carbonate solution. Participants explore the calculations involved, the relevant equations, and factors affecting the boiling point elevation, including the Van 't Hoff factor.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Experimental/applied

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion over the mismatch between calculated and measured boiling point elevation, seeking clarification on potential errors.
  • Another participant requests more information about the calculations and measurements to provide assistance.
  • A participant calculates the boiling point elevation for a 1 m solution of sodium carbonate, expecting an elevation of 0.512 °C but measuring 2 °C instead.
  • There is a discussion about the formula for boiling point elevation for ionic substances, with a focus on the number of ions produced upon ionization.
  • One participant notes that sodium carbonate produces three particles upon ionization, suggesting that a 1 molar solution should yield a boiling point elevation based on three moles of ions.
  • A participant reflects on their calculations based on 1 mol and acknowledges that this may explain their higher observed elevation, attributing some error to equipment limitations.
  • Another participant introduces the concept of the Van 't Hoff factor as a missing element in the calculations.
  • One participant suggests working backwards from an observed boiling point to determine the Van 't Hoff factor, indicating a need for further study on the topic.
  • Questions arise regarding the precision of the thermometer used for measurements, with one participant noting the specifications of their digital thermometer.
  • A participant discusses the implications of conducting multiple trials, noting that their errors ranged from 40% to 50% and speculating on the actual Van 't Hoff value.
  • There is a consensus that the assumption of complete dissociation of ions is reasonable in this case, although some uncertainty remains regarding the actual Van 't Hoff value and its dependence on concentration.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints on the calculations and factors affecting boiling point elevation, with no clear consensus on the exact reasons for the discrepancies observed. Multiple competing views regarding the Van 't Hoff factor and its implications remain present throughout the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge limitations in their measurements and calculations, including the potential impact of equipment accuracy and the assumptions made about ion dissociation and concentration effects.

mheadlee
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I am trying to get the calculations and the data to match up in lab. The boiling point elevation predicted by the equation does not match up to the one I am getting by direct measurement. What am I doing wrong?
 
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mheadlee said:
I am trying to get the calculations and the data to match up in lab. The boiling point elevation predicted by the equation does not match up to the one I am getting by direct measurement. What am I doing wrong?

We don't know what equation you are talking about. We don't know what you did. We don't know what and how you calculated. We don't know what and how you measured. We know nothing, yet you expect us to give you a definitive answer? Sorry, we are witty, wise and knowledgeable, but mind reading is something we are not trained in.
 
I am trying to determine the Boiling point elevation for a 1 m solution of sodium carbonate. Multiplying 1 m by .512 should give a boiling point elevation of .512 C, but when I measure out a 1 m solution and boil it I get an elevation of 2 C
 
What is the formula for boiling point elevation for ionic substances?
 
I believe the molar boiling point elevation for ionic compounds depends on the number of ions that are produced when the substance ionizes. Sodium Carbonate ionizes to two Sodium plus one Carbonate that makes 3 particles therefore a 1 molar solution of Sodium Carbonate should have 3 moles of ions in it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling-point_elevation
 
My calculations were based on 1 mol. That explains why the elevation I am getting is between 3 and 4 times higher. The rest of the error can be attributed to the equipment I am working with. Its like trying to slice an onion with a chain saw. Thanks for your help.
 
What you were missing is called a Van 't Hoff factor.
 
Thanks again - We tried it and cut our error down from about 300% to about 40%. Much better but not good enough. I wonder if it would be better to work backwards from an observed boiling point to a Van't Hoff factor? I need to "brush up" on this stuff a little more.
 
How precise was the thermometer used to measure the BP elevation?
 
  • #10
we were using digital thermometers plus minus .1 C
 
  • #11
That means your delta T in worst case is ±.2 and very likely ±.1 deg C. If you did a single experiment you can't say anything about accuracy of your measurements (other than to assume it was in the range given by the instrument specification).
 
  • #12
We did three trials, all three outcomes were within 10% of each other. Our lowest error was 40% and our highest error was 50%. I am wondering if the actual Van't Hoff value is somewhere between one and three. Three assumes all ions dissociate completely and one assumes that none did. Also - I wonder if the concentration of the solute was too high. Would the actual VH value drop as the solution approaches saturation? (I am guessing at this point)
 
  • #13
mheadlee said:
Three assumes all ions dissociate completely

As far as I know this is a pretty good assumption in this case.
 

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