Did Ancient Farming Needs Shape Math and Language Development?

[zoobyshoe]

What does that prove, except that they were more vulnerable to nature.

No, It proves it isn't necessary to have calendars to have successful agriculture.

In any case, how can anyone be sure of how they actually worked things out? Without a detailed written record, we couldn't tell what proto mathematical tricks they were using.

The only thing you need for agricultural timing, it should be obvious, is simple memory of the course of the seasons for a year, and the knowledge that that fairly short cycle repeats endlessly. It isn't necessary to know a specific date. It isn't necessary to know there are 365 days in a year. All you need to know is things like, you have about a 4 1/2 moon window to grow a plant that takes about 2 1/2 moons to mature. That sort of rule of thumb.

And, we have lots of detailed written records of how various primitive peoples worked out all kinds of things, records made by literate people who encountered and interacted with them, both ancient and modern.

Googling tells me the Sumerians had an astrological system. The calendars they worked out were probably more linked to that than anything else.

"Advanced" mathematical notation can be found in any big city throughout history. So I think it is reasonably that the existence of the big cities gave a big impetus towards doing math.

It only became useful once you needed to work with big numbers and do difficult calculations. Those things are needed in big cities and empires.

I agree with this. Math was needed to build cities and empires and was explored for those purposes, and the converse is true; the existence of cities and empires allowed for the dedicated mathematician, the architect, the accountant, the astrologer, etc. In more primitive societies everyone has to be able to do everything such that no one gets really expert at anything the way city dwellers can.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

Necessity is the mother of invention. The development of math enhanced survival and population growth.

 

[Hornbein]

The Balinese calendar is 420 days. It is numerological.

 

[Isaacsname]

"zoobyshoe " The Romans used pebbles "

They used them for what ?

Isopsephy ?

About the only thing they used pebbles for was to teach figurate numbers { but that is entirely another conversation }

Babylonian S type cuniform is the basis of what I am discussing, thanks, not rocks

 

[Isaacsname]

Look, try to keep an accurate calendar using months that are off from the average Synodic length and see what happens

Average SYM = 29.53 days

12.369 SYM / year = 365.25657

That's a Julian year

Now try to keep that with a 30 day month

12.369 SYM / year x 30 days = 371.07

Now look at how far off you drift in the space of just 5 years

{ 30 day months } = 1855.35 days

{ 29.53 day months } = 1826.28285 days

In just 5 years you are off by almost a full month

That is disastrous for a farmer who is trying to keep a schedule

I guess some of you have never attempted farming on a large scale ?

 

[Isaacsname]

If you don't think you need to know the cycles accurately, you have obviously never farmed

It's not as easy as just walking outside and throwing seeds on the ground

I don't think you are considering the logistics of large scale manual farming, this much is obvious

also, simply by information entropy in historical records you can plainly see the information that was the most important is what they left the most records of:

Farming and astronomical cycles are two of these things they must have deemed important otherwise they wouldn't have been so meticulous about keeping records

Unless there is a plethora of undiscovered cuniform regarding how to sew buttons on shirts, or how to wage war, or how to tell lame jokes, and I haven't seen those yet

 

[Evo]

It is well known. I already linked a book earlier in the thread that discusses this.

You linked a book? It just mentions positions of constellations for planting times? I already agreed with that, but I don't see any reference to math in your post.

I think this could be a really interesting thread, but we need to do some clean up and follow rules (not you), nothing has improved since Drakkith's re-opening message. If this thread is going to become meaningful, we need to agree on some rules.

 

[Evo]

Ok, ok, don't get all upset, just hold on a second, nobody even asked me for sources yet and you're jumping my case. If you wanted sources you should just ask

I'm not upset, our rules stipulate acceptable sources must be cited, that was brought up by micromass and then mentor drakkith said so right before you posted again without sources.

It seems this thread continues to deteriorate into arguing back and forth. I don't have much time and perhaps this was already linked.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_mathematics#Prehistoric_mathematics