Difference of two square integers

Click For Summary
The discussion centers on identifying the 2002nd positive integer that cannot be expressed as the difference of two square integers. Participants explore the concept of "perfect differences," concluding that these include all odd numbers greater than or equal to 3 and all multiples of 4 greater than or equal to 8. They identify that the integers that cannot be represented in this way are those of the form 2(2m + 1), along with the numbers 1 and 4. After calculations, it is suggested that the 2002nd non-perfect difference is 8006, although there is some debate about the inclusion of certain numbers in the final count. The conversation emphasizes the importance of understanding the properties of square integers in this context.
primarygun
Messages
233
Reaction score
0
Find the 2002nd positive integer that is not the difference of two square integers.
I have idea for the answers, but there are two.
 
Mathematics news on Phys.org
How about posting your ideas?
 
well, that would mean that the integer cannot be a^2 - b^2, if a > b... i vaguely remember doing this before, but all i can remember is that it really comes down to finding what numbers *cant* be expressed as the difference of two squares, and then sort of just doing it... sorry I am not very helpful
 
Thank you. That helps me a lot !
 
Hello, primarygun

primarygun said:
Find the 2002nd positive integer that is not the difference of two square integers.
I have idea for the answers, but there are two.

There are two?

I can't understand how could that be.
If we put all these numbers in a series, just one is in the place 2002! :confused:

Anyway...


x=a^2-b^2
I SUPPOSE THAT a,b>0
If a number can be written as a difference of two perfect squares then I'll call that number a perfect difference

Well, that's what I found

First, I wrote down some squares, from 1^2 to 10^2 and I found the differences (you can easy do it on Excel)
I noticed that the differences are either
3,5,7,9,11,..
or
8,12,16,20,24,..

And there is not other!
(But there are numbers which are repeated many times, e.g
24=7^2-5^2, but also
24=5^2-1^2)

That is, the perfect differences are all even numbers (>=3) and all multiples of 4 (>=8)

I think that I must prove it :rolleyes:

Well, say x=a^2-b^2 => x=(a+b)(a-b)
(That is we suppose that x is a perfect difference)
Of course a>b

x may be either odd or even

1)
x is even

so x=2q (where q>=1)
(a-b)(a+b)=2q
The second side is even
So a-b is even or a+b is even
but if a-b is even then a+b is even too:
a-b=2k =>
a=b+2k =>
a+b= (b+2k)+b = 2b+2k = 2(b+k)
Then x = 2k*2(b+k) = 4k(b+k)

Since k>=1 & b>=1 the value of k(b+k) has a minimum value 1*(1+1)=1*2=2

So, IF x is even THEN x=4r, where r>=2
(That is, all multiples of 4, except 4)

2)
x is odd


so x=2k+1
but if you set
a=k+1
b=k

then you get a^2-b^2 = (a-b)(a+b) = 1*(k+k+1) = 2k+1
Since b>=1 => k>=1 => x>2*1+1 =>
x>=3

So, IF x is odd & x>=3 THEN x is a perfect difference.

We found that the perfect differences are:
-the odd numbers (>=3)
-the multiples of 4 (>=8)

In other words if x=4k+m (you divide by 4, k is the quotient and m is the remainder)
m=0 => x is a perfect difference
m=1 => x is a perfect difference (because x is odd)
m=3 => x is a perfect difference (because x is odd)

But if m=2 <=> x=4m+2 <=> x=2(2m+1)
then x isn't divisible by 4, so x is NOT a perfect difference

The desired numbers are all the doubles of an odd, x=2(2m+1)
and also, x=4 and x=1
(x=4 is the only multiple of 4 which is less than 8
x=1 is the only odd number <3)
So, can you now find which NON perfect difference is at the place 2002?

If you don't understand something, just tell me, ok?
 
Last edited:
Thanks.
Actually, I have already got the solution. But I suspect the answer from that book.
 
Doesn't matter !
It was actually a very good problem, so I was glad to deal with this! :smile:
 
8006?......
 
I think you forgot to count x=4 and x=1

...
Put all even numbers in a series
The first one is 1
The next 3,5,7,...
The 2002nd is 4003 (if I calculated right)

Double them
The first is 2, then 6,10,14,...
The 2002nd is 8006

But there are also the numbers x=4 and x=1

There are 2 numbers, so we want the 2000th in the series 2,6,10,14,..., which is 7998
(n=2000=>
k=2n-1= 3999 =>
2k = 7998)
 
  • #10
Popey, 4 and 1 are a difference of square integers. 1=1^2-0^2 and 4^2-0^2. Zero is a square integer.

Also, while your proof shows that if a positive integer divisible by 2 is a difference of squares then it's divisible by 4, you did not show that every integer divisible by 4 is a difference of squares. Did you deal with this primarygun?
 
  • #11
Thanks, shmoe!


Popey said:
I can't understand how could that be.
If we put all these numbers in a series, just one is in the place 2002! :confused:

Anyway...


x=a^2-b^2
I SUPPOSE THAT a,b>0

Since I didn't knew for a and b, if they are positive, I supposed that they are!
That's why I reject the values
x=1=12-02
x=4=42-02


With this shmoe's comment , primarygun is correct! the number is 8006

About your second comment, I did it to my paper but I didn't post it here, because I thought that it's not important.

Now I see clearly that it's important! :frown:
----------------------------------------------------
Well, suppose that x=4n (n>0 because x>0)
x=2*2n

if you set a=n+1 & b=n-1, then
a2-b2=
(a+b)(a-b)=
[(n+1)-(n-1)][(n+1)+(n-1)]=2*2n=x

Thank you!
 
  • #12
were trying to count out the occurrence of the sum of consecutive odd positive integers.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • · Replies 23 ·
Replies
23
Views
2K
  • · Replies 31 ·
2
Replies
31
Views
3K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
2K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
2K
Replies
7
Views
2K