I Distinguishing classical physics vs. quantum physics

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Classical physics is characterized by deterministic outcomes based on past events, while quantum physics introduces contextuality and inherent uncertainty in measurements. The discussion highlights the challenge of conveying these differences simply and succinctly, with various suggestions including the Alice and Bob scenario to illustrate quantum entanglement and violations of Bell's inequalities. The conversation emphasizes that quantum mechanics allows for non-classical correlations that cannot be explained by classical theories, making it "weird" compared to classical physics. Additionally, the importance of understanding these concepts at a level accessible to college freshmen is noted, with concerns about the general public's grasp of physics fundamentals. Ultimately, the distinction between classical and quantum physics lies in their fundamentally different approaches to causality and measurement outcomes.
  • #61
Zafa Pi said:
1st off a radioactive atom is one where we notice decay, so the first half of his statement is a tautology.
One can predict with QM the rate of decay. If this is a tautology then all theoretical physics is, since one can notice everything it predicts correctly!
 
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  • #62
Zafa Pi said:
how to eloquently distinguish classical and quantum physics. What I mean by eloquent is both simple and short. By simple I mean understandable to any college freshman, and with that caveat, as short as possible.
QM predicts spectra, CM doesn't.
 
  • #63
In QM Born's rule is a postulate. It's unlikely that one can proof it somehow from the other postulates (see Weinberg, Lectures on Quantum Mechanics, Cambridge University Press 2012). So far I don't know of any evidence that there is anywhere the classical determinism left. I guess, if one can find a deterministic theory, then it will be even less comprehensible than quantum theory, because given the fact that Bell's inequality is violated as predicted by QT one must give up locality, and this will be a big challenge to be made compatible with the relativistic space-time structure and causality.

Concerning radioactive decay, I've no clue, how it could be understandable within classical mechanics beyond a purely statistical ("random walk") rule: The decay probabilities are given and then implemented in terms of a rate equation, in the most simple case leading just to radioactive decay of A to B+X (like one of the three usual decay mechanisms of radioactivity, called ##\alpha##, ##\beta##, and ##\gamma##, because it was just not understood what's really going on).

With quantum (field) theory it's easy to describe as interactions causing transitions from one state to another, and thus the only microscopic mechanism to "explain" the radioactive decays known today. With "explain" I mean to finally trace it back to the interactions that we take as "fundamental" today,i.e., those described by the Standard Model of Elementary particles; the three decay forms correspond to the strong interaction (cluster formation within nuclei "preforming" ##\alpha## particles, i.e., ##\text{He}^4## nuclei within the nucleus which then tunnel through the potential barrier a la Gamav), the weak interaction (##\beta## decay of one quark flavor to another quark flavor and leptons like ##\text{n} \rightarrow e^-+\bar{\nu}_e + \text{p}##, i.e., the decay of a down quark to an up-quark and the leptons within the neutron, and the electromagnetic interaction, which is nothing else than an electromagnetic transition of an excited nuclei leading to the decay to a less excited nucleus (maybe even to its ground state) and a photon. This is all described in terms of quantum field theory by taking the unstable particles/nuclei as resonances and calculating perturbatively their width, i.e., lifetime which figures into the decay rates to be put into the phenomenological rate equations.

Note that this is an approximation, which is strictly speaking contradicting basic principles of quantum field theory, namely the unitarity of the S-matrix, according to which there cannot be any strictly exponential decay law (see the textbook of Sakurai, 2nd edition). In the energy domain that's the statement that the spectral function of the unstable state cannot be a strict Lorentzian.
 
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  • #64
Is this too simple;

The experimental outcomes of QT depend on the integer parameter "n", CM the outcomes do not vary.
 
  • #65
houlahound said:
Is this too simple;

The experimental outcomes of QT depend on the integer parameter "n", CM the outcomes do not vary.
Not too simple for me. I don't get it.
 
  • #66
Trying a different approach;

re the OP - a quantum particle requires the specification of a set of numbers to define the state of the particle and its observable properties that have no counterpart in CM eg: n, l, m, z, s.
 
  • #67
A. Neumaier said:
One can predict with QM the rate of decay. If this is a tautology then all theoretical physics is, since one can notice everything it predicts correctly!
I agree that saying, "One can predict with QM the rate of decay." is not a tautology. But your earlier statement, "A radioactive atom decays according to QM" is what I was referring to.
I also agree that your statement in post #62, "QM predicts spectra, CM doesn't." is is accurate and elegantly short, but I doubt a freshman lit major would be familiar with the concept "spectra".
 
  • #68
Tunnelling in general is pure QM.
 
  • #69
vanhees71 said:
Note that this is an approximation, which is strictly speaking contradicting basic principles of quantum field theory, namely the unitarity of the S-matrix, according to which there cannot be any strictly exponential decay law (see the textbook of Sakurai, 2nd edition). In the energy domain that's the statement that the spectral function of the unstable state cannot be a strict Lorentzian.
Wow, I always thought that lifetime till decay was governed by an exponential distribution and was well documented by experiment. I'm not familiar with your explanation, but what is the law in that case?
 
  • #70
houlahound said:
Tunnelling in general is pure QM.
True enough, and nicely short. But what I was after in my OP was something a college freshman would understand.
 
  • #71
I think you are short changing the intelligence of the average freshman. Tunnelling is the conceptually simplest thing to visualise with a simple sketch yet it is classically impossible that nobody would argue.
 
  • #72
Zafa Pi said:
True enough, and nicely short. But what I was after in my OP was something a college freshman would understand.
I am an EE who is interested in physics from the early days of college and spent many many hours investigating the subject. Even with good background in classical electromagnetic being part of my field, I still struggle to have a good mental picture of what QM is as related to CM or on its own. Moreover, the conceptual difference ( not necessarily the weird things like ERP.. etc) are also interpretation dependent. But I also think with any science student who is interested in QM today with vast amount of knowledge on the internet and libraries at his fingertip should not have much problem getting the hang of it.

Ya, it is an interesting exercise, but I wouldn't worry about it.:smile:
 
  • #73
ftr said:
Ya, it is an interesting exercise, but I wouldn't worry about it.:smile:
You got a pill for that? I've been dwelling about it on and off for months.
 
  • #74
Zafa Pi said:
Wow, I always thought that lifetime till decay was governed by an exponential distribution and was well documented by experiment. I'm not familiar with your explanation, but what is the law in that case?

Exponential decay takes over when decoherence has separated the decay modes / states, by sending off-diagonal elements of density matrix (correlations) to zero. After that happens probabilities are classical and we get exponential decay. But before they decohere, right at the beginning of the decay event ... I don't really know what it does but it's not exponential, due to interference between potential decay states.

The tail of the distribution also isn't exactly exponential. I'd be interested to hear why that is.

This non-exponentiality hasn't yet been verified experimentally AFAIK. But no doubt QM will turn out to be right, as usual.
 
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  • #75
secur said:
If you really want to address someone "who has never taken physics" few of these answers will do it. If you tell them that "qp−pq=iℏqp−pq=iℏqp-pq=i\hbar" or "Alice and Bob are too far apart to communicate and neither knows what the other is doing, etc" they'll give a totally blank look - and never again ask you anything about physics!
Over the past three days I've given my story in post #1 to several high school graduates and they seem to understand it, but can not fathom a no answer. Just what I expected and wanted. Maybe you think I should want something else.
 
  • #76
secur said:
Exponential decay takes over when decoherence has separated the decay modes / states, by sending off-diagonal elements of density matrix (correlations) to zero. After that happens probabilities are classical and we get exponential decay. But before they decohere, right at the beginning of the decay event ... I don't really know what it does but it's not exponential, due to interference between potential decay states.

The tail of the distribution also isn't exactly exponential. I'd be interested to hear why that is.

This non-exponentiality hasn't yet been verified experimentally AFAIK. But no doubt QM will turn out to be right, as usual.
I like it, it sounds cool, but I don't understand, "but it's not exponential, due to interference between potential decay states."
 
  • #77
Zafa Pi said:
Maybe you think I should want something else.

Not at all.

Zafa Pi said:
I like it, it sounds cool, but I don't understand, "but it's not exponential, due to interference between potential decay states."

secur said:
I don't really know what it does but it's not exponential, due to interference between potential decay states.

But the basic idea is clear. When the decay states are decohered, and obey classical probabilities, each decays at its own unique (except for degeneracy) decay rate eigenvalue. But when there's interference you get some hard-to-calculate semi-random mix of the different decay rates. It wouldn't look exponential; it might even increase at times. If you can get data at that granularity, 10^-20 seconds (typical), the graph would start off irregular. But soon it would become smooth exponential decay, because, according to MWI, this particular instance of you has become entangled with one of the decohered eigenstates. And if you believe that I've got a great deal on Nigerian gold mines you might be interested in. Please PM.
 
  • #78
I think the non-exponential decay due to quantum effects has been observed in atomic transitions.

For a detailed discussion about theory on non-exponential decay, see the following paper

https://arxiv.org/abs/1110.5923
 
  • #79
Wooh, that is a tough paper.
 
  • #80
Zafa Pi said:
I also agree that your statement in post #62, "QM predicts spectra, CM doesn't." is is accurate and elegantly short, but I doubt a freshman lit major would be familiar with the concept "spectra".
Replace ''spectra'' by ''spectral lines in a rainbow pattern obtained by shining sun light through a prism'', and they will understand. (Or they won't understand anything about classical and quantum mechanics anyway.)
 
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  • #81
houlahound said:
Tunnelling in general is pure QM.
except that the name is completely spurious. If it were really tunneling, the rate should be independent of the height of the barrier. But is goes to zero as the barrier gets larger and larger.
 
  • #82
Mr Nuemaier an you comment on tunnelling of EM waves. I get confused because it was observed before QM and has a full classical explanation - is it a quantum thing?
 
  • #83
houlahound said:
tunnelling of EM waves. I get confused because it was observed before QM and has a full classical explanation
Please give a reference so that I can comment.
 
  • #85
  • #86
vanhees71 said:
In QM Born's rule is a postulate. It's unlikely that one can proof it somehow from the other postulates (see Weinberg, Lectures on Quantum Mechanics, Cambridge University Press 2012).

Just to elaborate a bit. Weinberg is of course correct. But, via Gleason, can be reduced to something that at first sight seems to have nothing to do with it, and within the formalism of QM seems almost trivial. In fact when you go through Gleason its so obvious its easy to miss - but its there. But it isn't trivial. In fact its telling us something very very deep about QM - but that requires a whole new thread.

The key point was reformulated as the Kochen-Specker theorem, but its really a simple corollary to Gleason. That it went this way has an interesting history:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kochen-specker/

I believe this obscures its main import - its really the reason for the Born-Rule.

Thanks
Bill
 
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  • #87
PeterDonis said:
Bell's original papers. See, for example, equation (2) here:

http://www.drchinese.com/David/Bell_Compact.pdf
Sorry for taking so long to get back to you, though you were always in my thoughts. I finally got around to perusing Bell's paper you recommended, thank you.
His proof that expectation value (e.v.) generated via hidden variables (2) cannot capture the e.v. from QM (3) (page 404) does in fact require CFD. This is in opposition to your posts #21 and #14.

For a given trial of the experiment only two measurements are made A(a,λ) and B(b,λ) = -A(b,λ) (1). However on the way to proving his nifty (15) the first equation at the top of page 406 we see three measurements A(a,λ), A(b,λ), and A(c,λ). The only way to get a third measurement in a single formula is employing CFD, we get the value of a measurement that wasn't made. That's what hidden variables allows one to do.

His proof is cute because it is short and only employs three measurements instead of the usual four as in CHSH, beside beating everyone to the punch, for which his name rings loud in the halls of QM.
I attended the - 50th anniversary of his paper - symposium in Vienna. The world came, it was was truly wonderful.
 
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  • #88
Zafa Pi said:
The only way to get a third measurement in a single formula is employing CFD, we get the value of a measurement that wasn't made.

This is not correct. P(a, b) and P(a, c) in the formula at the top of p. 406 refer to probability distributions obtained from two sets of runs--one set with settings a, b for the two measuring devices, the other with settings a, c for the two measuring devices. Similarly, P(b, c) in equation 15 and the equation just above it refers to a third set of runs, where the settings are b, c for the two measuring devices. There are no counterfactuals at all; everything is in terms of statistics done on actual observed results. And of course when these experiments are actually done, that is exactly how they are done and how they are analyzed; nobody assumes any results for measurements that are not made.
 
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  • #89
PeterDonis said:
This is not correct. P(a, b) and P(a, c) in the formula at the top of p. 406 refer to probability distributions obtained from two sets of runs--one set with settings a, b for the two measuring devices, the other with settings a, c for the two measuring devices. Similarly, P(b, c) in equation 15 and the equation just above it refers to a third set of runs, where the settings are b, c for the two measuring devices. There are no counterfactuals at all; everything is in terms of statistics done on actual observed results. And of course when these experiments are actually done, that is exactly how they are done and how they are analyzed; nobody assumes any results for measurements that are not made.
Would you say that the usual CHSH or GHZ uses CFD? If so where? If not then we have a fundamental disagreement on the nature of CFD that I can foresee may be very difficult to resolve.

BTW P(a,b) is not a probability distribution it is a number, an expectation value, allegedly = -a•b
 
  • #90
Zafa Pi said:
Would you say that the usual CHSH or GHZ uses CFD?

If you can give a specific reference I will take a look at it.
 

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