Distinguishing Curved Space vs. Coordinate Choices in Mathematics

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mathematical distinction between curved space and coordinate choices, particularly in the context of general relativity and gravitational waves. Participants explore the implications of coordinate transformations and their effects on perceived curvature in spacetime.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how to mathematically distinguish between curved space and coordinate choices, using examples from spherical polar coordinates and gravitational waves.
  • Another participant asserts that space curvature, denoted as R, serves as a criterion, stating that coordinate changes in flat space (where R=0) do not alter the curvature.
  • A participant mentions A.A. Logunov's approach to gravity, suggesting that in his framework, harmonic coordinates are determined by field equations rather than being mere coordinate conditions.
  • There is a query about the meaning of "coordinates," with a participant suggesting that transforming to an accelerating frame might imply curvature, leading to a discussion about local versus global flatness.
  • Another participant clarifies that while an accelerating reference frame introduces additional forces, it does not change the underlying flatness of space, emphasizing that reversible coordinate changes maintain R=0.
  • A participant explains that if the Riemann tensor is zero, its components remain zero across all coordinate systems, indicating that spacetime curvature is not a result of coordinate choice.
  • There is a question about the implications of choosing an accelerating frame, specifically regarding the introduction of a non-zero affine connection and its relation to the Riemann tensor.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of coordinate transformations and their relationship to curvature, indicating that multiple competing perspectives remain unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants discuss various assumptions about local versus global curvature, the nature of coordinate transformations, and the implications of different reference frames, which may not be fully resolved.

madness
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How do we distinguish (mathematically) between curved space and the choice of coordinates? For example, the flat space metric in spherical polar coordinates looks as if it is curved space. I can ask the same for gravitational waves - how do we know that it isn't the TT gauge which is wavelike, rather than spacetime itself?
 
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The space curvature R is the criterion. Whatever coordinate change you do in a flat space (R=0), the curvature remains to be zero.

In A.A. Logunov's approach to gravity (RTG) the equations determining the harmonic coordinates are not the "coordinate conditions" but the field equations. In his construction the separation of the Minkowsky metric and the gravitational field is explicit due to involving the former in the field equations.
 
Ok thanks that's all I needed to know. I'm actually working from Maggiore's text on gravitational waves. I'm having to learn GR in tandem with gravitational waves so I'm still trying to figure out a lot of conceptual issues.
 
Sorry just another quick question. What do you mean by coordinates here? Presumably tranforming to a frame which is accelerating with respect to the flat frame would result in curvature, so I presume this is not what you mean by a coordinate change. At any point it is possible to find a frame which is locally flat, so I are you talking about globally flat here?
 
madness said:
...What do you mean by coordinates here? Presumably transforming to a frame which is accelerating with respect to the flat frame would result in curvature...

No, no! Acceleration is different from gravity. Take simple Classical Mechanics and choose an accelerating RF. Such a change of variables introduces additional forces but the space remains flat, that's for sure. So by coordinate change I mean any coordinate change which is reversible (not singular). If it is done starting from a flat space, the curvature R=0 remains intact (it is an invariant anyway).
 
A coordinate system is a function from an open set of spacetime into [itex]\mathbb R^4[/itex]. If the Riemann tensor is zero, its components are zero in all coordinate systems. Spacetime doesn't get curved just because you choose a coordinate system with the property that a hypersurface of constant time is a curved submanifold.
 
Ok that's cleared some things up. But choosing an accelerating frame does introduce a non-zero affine connection right? Is it that the derivatives of the connection (which gives the Riemann tensor) are still zero, or that at least they combine in such a way as to let R=0?
 

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