Do particles exist forever? Can Anything Exist forever?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the longevity of particles, specifically whether any particles can exist indefinitely or if all eventually decay. Participants explore concepts related to particle decay, stability, and the implications of grand unified theories (GUT) on particle existence.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether any particles can last forever, suggesting that all particles eventually decay.
  • It is noted that neutrons have a half-life of approximately fifteen minutes when free, decaying into protons, while protons and electrons are considered more stable, with their half-lives potentially being infinite or extremely long.
  • Grand unified theories are mentioned as requiring proton decay, yet experiments have not observed any decay, suggesting a half-life greater than 10^33 years.
  • Some participants argue that photons do not decay because they do not experience time, and thus do not have fundamental particles associated with them.
  • A conceptual challenge is raised regarding the nature of particles, proposing that they might be better understood as regions of spacetime rather than discrete entities.
  • There is a discussion about the decay of neutrons when not confined in an atomic nucleus, with some suggesting that the strong nuclear force plays a role in preventing rapid decay.
  • Questions are posed about what protons would decay into, acknowledging that while theories predict proton decay, there is currently no evidence supporting it.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the existence and decay of particles, with no consensus reached on whether any particles can exist forever or the implications of GUTs. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives presented.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on definitions of particles and decay, as well as unresolved questions regarding the nature of time and spacetime in relation to particle behavior.

darkar
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Can any particles last forever? Is that all particles will eventually decays? And is that after decay, in another process they will form back again?
 
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If you had a neutron, well, it most probably end up decaying into other particles, and that would mean that it didn't last forever. Of course conservation laws are still in place.
 
neutrons have a half life of approximately fifteen minutes and then they decay into a proton. protons and electrons seem to be the most stable particles and their half life is in texts as being infinite but of course they could just have an extremely long half life of greater than the present age of the universe.
 
Grand unified theories seem to require proton decay. However, all experiments to date have come up with a half life something > 1033 years, i.e. no decays observed.
 
mathman said:
Grand unified theories seem to require proton decay. However, all experiments to date have come up with a half life something > 1033 years, i.e. no decays observed.

Does this mean that currently no evidence that GUT is correct?
 
We don't have any grand unified theories yet, ones presented have been full of errors, anomolies, etc, but there are some still in production.
 
photons do not decay as they experience no time
 
Flatland said:
photons do not decay as they experience no time


Time?
"Decay" pre-supposes that there are fundamental particles associated with the original.
Hence, photons do not decay because there is nothing to "decay".
In addition, a photon, though it can exhibit particle-like behavior, is not a particle. It is a force carrier.
My perception(though I could be wrong) is that force-carriers cannot decay, having nothing to do with "time"
 
Can I chip into say there is something of a conceptual problem with "particles". We tend to think of them as little billiard balls, but it might be better to think of them as regions of spacetime with certain properties. As I'm sure Flatland will concur, there's also a conceptual problem with Forces being thought of as messenger particles rather than distortions of spacetime in one or more dimensions. It gets worse when you look at time, because in a way the time is in the "particle" rather than the particle being in the time. All these issues fog the original question, and maybe it should be rephrased to How and why does a region of spacetime make a quantum-leap state change to break into one or more regions of spacetime with different properties? But I don't know the answer to that. Sorry.
 
  • #10
darkar said:
Can any particles last forever? Is that all particles will eventually decays? And is that after decay, in another process they will form back again?

I would think that ultimately everything material decays (perhaps even protons and electrons and neutrino's) and in theory could lead to a universe which only contains radiation (Penrose has speculated about this idea, and suggested that in that instance the universe forgets about time and the universe will re-inflate and forms a new big bang, see http://www.Newton.ac.uk/webseminars/pg+ws/2005/gmr/gmrw04/1107/penrose/) but then the universe in one or other form will always exist.
If we assume that matter+energy is conserved always, there will always be a universe, and we do not currently doubt this.
 
  • #11
pallidin said:
Time?
"Decay" pre-supposes that there are fundamental particles associated with the original.
Hence, photons do not decay because there is nothing to "decay".
In addition, a photon, though it can exhibit particle-like behavior, is not a particle. It is a force carrier.
My perception(though I could be wrong) is that force-carriers cannot decay, having nothing to do with "time"

I would argue that this is because of having no rest mass.
 
  • #12
Why do neutrons decay so readily when not confined in an atomic nucleus?
Does strong nuclear force help prevent their rapid decay?
 
  • #13
You can naively think of this as the neutron inside a nucleus has lower mass then a free neutron due to the binding energy, which precents the proton to become an accessible decay state for the neutron.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_decay )
 
  • #14
What would the proton decay to?
 
  • #15
neu said:
What would the proton decay to?
Although some theories predict proton decay, there has been no evidence of it. If it does the half life is > 1033 years.
 

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