Do the SQUID experiments falsify Bohmian mechanics?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of SQUID experiments conducted by Delft and Stony Brook on Bohmian mechanics, particularly whether these experiments falsify the theory. Participants explore the nature of superpositions, the interpretation of currents in the experiments, and the relationship between pilot waves and determinism in quantum mechanics.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants argue that the SQUID experiments demonstrate currents moving in both directions simultaneously, which they believe challenges the notion of a single evolution of states as proposed by Bohmian mechanics.
  • Others contend that the experiments do not falsify Bohmian mechanics but rather challenge the idea that quantum mechanics is only valid at the microscopic scale.
  • There is a discussion about the nature of superpositions in the experiments, with some asserting that superpositions do not imply that actual currents flow in both directions, but rather that the direction remains undetermined until measured.
  • Some participants emphasize that Bohmian mechanics assigns a definite direction to the current, even when not measured, leading to varying interpretations of the results based on the details of the superposition.
  • Concerns are raised regarding the interpretation of measurements, with some arguing that measuring flux does not equate to measuring superpositions of flux states, and that one cannot measure and not measure an observable simultaneously.
  • There are references to the potential implications of these experiments for future quantum computing, with discussions on whether Bohmian mechanics could survive in that context.
  • Some participants express skepticism about the accuracy of popular science reporting on quantum physics, particularly regarding the interpretation of superposition.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the implications of the SQUID experiments on Bohmian mechanics, with no consensus reached on whether the experiments falsify the theory or not. The discussion remains unresolved with ongoing debate about the interpretations of superpositions and measurements.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in understanding the relationship between observed superpositions and pilot wave dynamics, as well as the implications of measurement on the interpretation of quantum states. The discussion highlights the complexity of reconciling experimental results with theoretical frameworks.

  • #61
f95toli said:
this is not really ambiguous. That the persistent current in the loop correspond to a certain flux follows from "classical" SQUID physics (flux quantization). you can find more about this in any standard textbook on superconductivity (say Tinkham's book).
The 3 junction SQUID used as a qubit is not in any way fundamentally different from a normal 2 junction SQUID. If you calculate the potential energy of the system you will find that the addition of an "extra" small junction gives rise to a double well potential, with the two wells corresponding to clockwise and counter-clockwise persistent currents flowing in the loop, respectively. If you then plug this potential energy into the Schrödinger equation you get what is more or less a complete description of the system (minus the effect of decoherence), anyone who has done say a first course in QM at university can do this.

I am going to be lazy and just refer to the following paper on the arXiv where you can find a brief summary and some references, just ignore the bit about the resonator. I am sure there are better references, but I can't think of one now.

http://arxiv.org/abs/0704.0727

Thank you for the reply but I would be grateful if you could clarify something.I'm fine with the correspondence between flux and current and with the superposition of two flux states. The ambiguity I referred to was that the sentence referred to earlier can be interpreted as the currents being in superposition as well as the flux states.
All I am trying to find out is whether there are any theoretical physicists who work in QM and who believe that there can be events such as an electron flowing in two opposite directions at the same time, or a bar which is vibrating at the same time when it is not vibrating,or a cat which is simultaneously dead and alive,and so on.I don't need details.Thank you.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #62
Dadface said:
All I am trying to find out is whether there are any theoretical physicists who work in QM and who believe that there can be events such as an electron flowing in two opposite directions at the same time, or a bar which is vibrating at the same time when it is not vibrating,or a cat which is simultaneously dead and alive,and so on.I don't need details.
I believe I know a lot about different interpretations of QM, and yet I think I never seen a serious proposal for an interpretation that would claim exactly that.

Yet, there is an interpretation that claims something similar - the many world interpretation. But even in that interpretation, both possibilities exist at once only after the measurement (or more precisely, after the decoherence) - that is, when the observer can see explicitly that only one of the two alternative possibilities has been realized.
 
  • #63
Cthugha said:
Basically, I am working on the border between optics and semiconductor physics with a special interest in photon statistics and collective phenomena. As to the "inspiring" part I find it pretty neat that in standard qm you can treat (in rough terms) photon bunching, stimulated emission and stimulated scattering on the one hand and the exclusion principle and antibunching on the other hand on pretty much the same footing as there is just a sign changing between bosons and fermions leading to constructive or destructive interference of the probability amplitudes for events leading to species of the same type ending up in indistinguishable states. Also the "more is different" aspect of collective phenomena comes out quite clear.

Anyway I am aware that you can also treat these topics well in BM. Some of the approaches are just not my cup of tea. For example it is interesting and makes sense that degeneracy pressure can be attributed to a quantum force in BM, but it seems odd to consider the reverse process for bosons causing photon bunching. While it is consistent to treat them similarly ( and I am sure that are more sophisticated takes on the topic in BM which may be more elegant), a quantum force pushing massless photons together is just not intuitive for me.
Thanks! Basically, I agree with you: Any quantum phenomenon can be described by BM, but not all phenomena look equally intuitive with the Bohmian view.

Anyway, a recent book
http://www.panstanford.com/books/9789814316392.html
demonstrates that Bohmian mechanics may be useful in many branches of physics, even for practical people who are not interested in interpretations of QM.
 
  • #64
Demystifier said:
I believe I know a lot about different interpretations of QM, and yet I think I never seen a serious proposal for an interpretation that would claim exactly that.

Yet, there is an interpretation that claims something similar - the many world interpretation. But even in that interpretation, both possibilities exist at once only after the measurement (or more precisely, after the decoherence) - that is, when the observer can see explicitly that only one of the two alternative possibilities has been realized.

Thank you Demystitifier.It's interesting stuff.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
1K
  • · Replies 37 ·
2
Replies
37
Views
4K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
1K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
3K
  • · Replies 94 ·
4
Replies
94
Views
8K
  • · Replies 37 ·
2
Replies
37
Views
7K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
4K
  • · Replies 75 ·
3
Replies
75
Views
14K
  • · Replies 190 ·
7
Replies
190
Views
17K