I Quantum Ball and Cup - Thought Experiment

  • #91
Lynch101 said:
I would have thought that, if the trajectory of the particle brought it into contact with the detector then it would necessarily result in a measurement event.
Why? What reference have you read about BM that leads you to believe this?

Once again: you really, really, really need to base your claims about what various interpretations say on actual references about those interpretations. You should not just wave your hands and try to figure out what the interpretations say on your own.
 
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  • #92
Lynch101 said:
In this context we would say that some of the possible measurement events (on the system in the double-slit experiment) lie outside the past light cone of the actual measurement event (on the system in question). This is just information we can gather from QM predictions and relativity.
Yes. But "possible events" are not necessarily actual events, and before you go applying QM plus relativity to "possible events", you should first go look to see whether relativity itself says anything at all about "possible events" that don't become actual. (Hint: it doesn't.)

Lynch101 said:
It is this information which I am seeking interpretation of.
So why don't you go read what the various papers in the literature on the various interpretations say about this?

If your answer is that, well, the various papers in the literature on the various interpretations don't really say anything about it, perhaps you should rethink your belief that this question is a meaningful question.

In fact, I can turn the question around: why do you think this question is a meaningful question?

Lynch101 said:
When we talk about possible measurement events being spacelike separated, are we talking about two separate measurements on entangled photon pairs, for example?
No. I am talking about the cases you have described (a single photon passing through a beam splitter, and a single photon going through a double slit apparatus).
 
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  • #93
PeterDonis said:
Not exact ones, no. Please re-read "all measurements have finite error" again and again until you understand what it means.

If you don't talk about exact positions of the hidden particles in Bohmian mechanics, you can't really talk about Bohmian mechanics at all, since those exact (hidden) particle positions are the key ingredient of BM.
I appreciate your exactness in your replies because it helps to further my understanding, so again, thank you for that. In this case, however, I think we might be talking past each other. My misinterpretation of certain features of BM is a primary factor in this. I don't think we need to talk about the exact position of the particle because I'm talking about the probabilistic predictions of measurement events and the interpretation of those positions.
PeterDonis said:
In fact, I can turn the question around: why do you think this question is a meaningful question?
Because I think the probabilistic predictions of QM call for interpretation and, in relativity, the location of an event in relation to the past light cone has meaning.

The interpretation I am trying to get at can, perhaps, be broken into two parts:
1) In what sense is it a genuine possibility for a measurement event to occur at any of the predicted,
non-zero, measurement event positions?
2) In what sense was there a genuine possibility of measuring the system at a measurement event
position which was/is outside the past light cone of the actual measurement event?In considering the question of the possibility of the system being measured at a position outside the past light cone, of the actual measurement, we might consider a macroscopic example, a spaceship say - solely to attempt to demonstrate the idea.

If we don't know where a spaceship is we might make probabilistic predictions as to where we might find it. Eventually, we measure the location of the spaceship (to within some finite error). If we look back at our predictions we will see that some of the probabilistic predictions lie outside the past light cone. How would we interpret this information?

Incomplete
Someone might suggest that the reason we made such probabilistic predictions in the first place is because our information was incomplete. In truth, some of the positions we predicted weren't genuinely possible, given the actual trajectory of the spaceship and the limiting factor of no-FTL travel.

Simple FTL
Someone else might come along and say, actually, the spaceship might be able to travel faster than the speed of light and so there was a genuine possibility of measuring the position of the spaceship somewhere outside the past light cone.

Collapse
Someone else might say, actually, the "spaceship system" is delocalised in space and when we make a measurement it randomly collapses into a single measurement event. This collapse happens instantaneously (FTL) so there was a genuine possibility of measuring the spaceship somewhere outside the past light cone of the actual measurement event.

BM-like*
Someone else might say, actually, our information is incomplete AND the spaceship can also travel FTL. Not only this, but when the spaceship triggers the measurement device it can result in the spaceship being measured at a spacelike separated position. This process occurs instantaneously (FTL). In this case there was a genuine possibility that the spaceship could have been measured at any of the non-zero predicted positions.

Are there other possible interpretations which don't imply either incompleteness, or some form of FTL causal influence?*This can be modified to make it a more accurate representation. The instantaneous (FTL) causal influence would carry the explanatory power.
 
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  • #94
Lynch101 said:
The interpretation I am trying to get at
...needs to be "got at" by going and looking at the literature, not by vague discussions in this forum with no basis in the literature. That includes "getting at" what Bohmian mechanics says.

Thread closed.
 
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  • #95
Lynch101 said:
we might consider a macroscopic example
As one other note: if you want to understand QM, you need to look at experiments that need QM for their explanation. Using examples that only need classical physics for their explanation, like the behavior of spaceships, is pointless. Please bear that in mind.
 
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