Do these sets span the same space?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around whether two sets of vectors, S_{1} and S_{2}, span the same space given certain conditions about their linear combinations. Participants explore the implications of one set being expressible in terms of the other and the conditions under which conclusions can be drawn about their spans.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that if every vector in S_{1} can be expressed as a linear combination of vectors in S_{2}, it does not necessarily imply that the two sets span the same space.
  • Others argue that if both conditions are met—every vector in S_{1} is expressible as a linear combination of vectors in S_{2} and vice versa—then the two sets span the same space.
  • A participant provides a geometric analogy, suggesting that if S_{1} represents vectors in a plane and S_{2} in a 3D space, S_{2} would contain vectors not in S_{1}, indicating that they do not span the same space.
  • Another participant asserts that the first condition alone does not lead to the conclusion, while the second condition can be proven directly from the definition of span.
  • It is noted that if every vector in S_{2} can be expressed as a linear combination of vectors in S_{1}, then S_{2} spans a subspace of the span of S_{1}.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement on whether the first condition alone is sufficient to conclude that the two sets span the same space. There is a general agreement that both conditions must be satisfied for such a conclusion to hold.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the importance of definitions and conditions in linear algebra, particularly regarding the concept of span and linear combinations. Some assumptions about the dimensionality and relationships between the sets are not explicitly stated.

Bipolarity
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Suppose you have two sets [itex]S_{1}[/itex] and [itex]S_{2}[/itex]. Suppose you also know that every vector in [itex]S_{1}[/itex] is expressible as a linear combination of the vectors in [itex]S_{2}[/itex]. Then can you conclude that the two sets span the same space?

If not, what if you further knew that every vector in [itex]S_{2}[/itex] is expressible as a linear combination of the vectors in [itex]S_{1}[/itex]?

I merely need an answer. I will work out the details (proof) for myself. Thanks!

BiP
 
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Isn't this like if every element of set A is in set B then there may still be elements in B that aren't in A.

Geometrically if S1 is all vectors in a plane whereas S2 is all vectors in a 3D space then its clear that S2 has some vectors that aren't in S1.
 
Bipolarity said:
Suppose you have two sets [itex]S_{1}[/itex] and [itex]S_{2}[/itex]. Suppose you also know that every vector in [itex]S_{1}[/itex] is expressible as a linear combination of the vectors in [itex]S_{2}[/itex]. Then can you conclude that the two sets span the same space?

If not, what if you further knew that every vector in [itex]S_{2}[/itex] is expressible as a linear combination of the vectors in [itex]S_{1}[/itex]?

Yes, if you know both those things, then you can make the conclusion. If you only know one of these things, then jedishrfu already pointed out that the conclusion doesn't follow.
 
No to the first and yes to the second. For the first one you can come up with tons of counter-examples. The second one you can prove straightforwardly from the definition of span.
 
If every vector in S2 can be written as a linear combination of vectors in S1, then S2 spans some subspace of the span of S1.
 

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