Do we have free will? If not, then we are all puppets and every

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the concept of free will and its implications in the context of empirical science. Participants explore whether a theory of everything (TOE) can adequately account for consciousness and the deterministic nature of human decisions, questioning the validity and future of empirical science as a means of understanding reality.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Meta-discussion

Main Points Raised

  • One participant argues that if free will does not exist, then all human experiences are illusions resulting from predetermined brain states, questioning the possibility of a TOE that explains consciousness.
  • Another participant expresses a belief that empirical science has reached a dead end, suggesting that theoretical research is now pointless and based on flawed ontological assumptions.
  • A third participant provocatively claims that if empirical science cannot be defended, it necessitates a reevaluation of how science communicates with the public, implying a disconnect between scientific understanding and public perception.
  • One participant defends the principle of empirical science as foundational but questions why there seems to be a lack of support for it in discussions about consciousness and determinism.
  • There is a suggestion that consciousness must be deterministic if empirical science remains the gold standard for evaluating theories, raising questions about the implications of this view.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

The discussion reflects significant disagreement among participants regarding the value and future of empirical science, the nature of consciousness, and the existence of free will. No consensus is reached on these issues.

Contextual Notes

Participants express various assumptions about the relationship between empirical science and consciousness, with some suggesting that current epistemological frameworks may be inadequate. There are unresolved questions regarding the implications of determinism on free will and the role of empirical science in understanding these concepts.

SimonA
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Do we have free will? If not, then we are all puppets and every thought, feeling, word, decision and action that we experience are an illusion.

This is the only option if we consider empirical science to be capable of producing a "TOE". The output of our brains can then only be the product of calculable chemical and electromagnetic reactions.

So the story then goes, that when you choose to raise your hand, that was actually predetermined by the electrical and chemical state of your brain before you made this supposed decision.

It's complete nonsense of course. We can claim quantum strangeness provides an escape from this anomaly. But all theories based on this way of thinking are even more crazy and evidence lacking than the original question. Even Hameroff's quantum tubules don't explain conscious decisions.

So my question is, does anyone believe that we can have a "TOE" that doesn't explain consciousness?

I suspect that all who answer "yes" will have highly specialised roles within science, but would be happy to be proven wrong.
 
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Let's face it, empirical science has reached a dead end. All theoretical research is now pointless. It will no longer provide any benefit for curious minds or even mankind itself. By breaking reality into ever smaller parts great things have been achieved. But the epistemology that is the foundation of the research is based on ontalogical assumptions that are simply wrong. So nothing truly significant will come from the millions spent on research. Science has been hoisted on it's own petard.
 


I'm deliberately being contenscious. If no one here can defend empirical science, we seriously need to re-evaluate how science communicates with the public. They have been lead to believe that we nearly understand everything, and that man has replaced god. It's irresponsible of you to leave the public even stupider than they naturally are.
 


Are there really no supporters of the value of empirical science out there any more ?

It's a good principle and researchers still think as if it's the base foundation of reality. But why is no one prepared to defend it?

It's as if the golden goose was cut apart to find the source of it's golden eggs, but I can't put my finger on when that happened. Empiricism is still the accepted measure of all theories in science, the bedrock of funding.

So why can no-one defend the natural conclusion that consciousness must be deterministic if empiricism is still the gold standard in terms of the epistemology behind science?
 

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