Does a Non-Empty Dense Set Have Isolation Points?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around whether a non-empty dense set can have isolation points, exploring various topological contexts and examples. Participants examine the properties of dense sets in different topologies, particularly focusing on subsets of real numbers and integers.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that a non-empty dense set cannot have isolation points because any ball around a point will contain another point, implying density precludes isolation.
  • Another participant points out that in the subspace topology on integers, every point is isolated, despite the set being dense in itself.
  • A participant questions the scenario when the dense subset is the irrationals, \(\mathbb{R} \setminus \mathbb{Q}\), and notes that in the subspace topology, this set has no isolated points.
  • It is mentioned that in the discrete topology, every point in \(\mathbb{R} \setminus \mathbb{Q}\) becomes an isolated point, although this topology loses the property of density in the reals.
  • A further example is provided where a modified topology on \(\mathbb{R}\) allows \(\mathbb{R} \setminus \mathbb{Q}\) to remain dense while also having an isolated point, specifically \(\sqrt{2}\).

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the existence of isolation points in dense sets depending on the topology considered. There is no consensus on a definitive answer, as multiple perspectives and examples are presented.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the dependence on the choice of topology when determining the properties of dense sets, indicating that assumptions about density and isolation points can vary significantly based on the context.

Jonmundsson
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Hello.

I was wondering whether a non-empty dense set has any isolation points. From my understanding, when a set is dense you can always find a third point between two points that is arbitrarily close to them so any ball you "create" around a point will contain another point hence a non-empty dense set has no isolation points.

Thanks.
 
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Jonmundsson said:
I was wondering whether a non-empty dense set has any isolation points.

Give [itex]\mathbb{Z}[/itex] the subspace topology. Notice that [itex]\mathbb{Z}[/itex] is dense in [itex]\mathbb{Z}[/itex] and that every point of [itex]\mathbb{Z}[/itex] is an isolated point.
 
What if the dense subset of [itex]\mathbb{R}[/itex] in question is [itex]\mathbb{R} \setminus \mathbb{Q}[/itex]
 
Jonmundsson said:
What if the dense subset in question is [itex]\mathbb{R} \setminus \mathbb{Q}[/itex].

In the subspace topology, the set [itex]\mathbb{R} \setminus \mathbb{Q}[/itex] has no isolated points. In the discrete topology, every point in [itex]\mathbb{R} \setminus \mathbb{Q}[/itex] is an isolated point.

Edit: Although in the discrete topology you lose density in the reals. The point is that you certainly can give sets topologies which make them dense AND which give them isolated points. In the usual topologies though, a dense set in the reals will have no isolated points.

For example, let [itex]\mathscr{T}[/itex] be the usual topology on [itex]\mathbb{R}[/itex]. Then the collection [itex]\mathscr{B}=\mathscr{T} \cup \{\sqrt{2}\}[/itex] is a basis for a topology on [itex]\mathbb{R}[/itex]. In this topology [itex]\mathbb{R} \setminus \mathbb{Q}[/itex] is dense and [itex]\sqrt{2}[/itex] is an isolated point.
 
Last edited:
OK. Thank you.
 

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