Does chaos means long term numerical simulations useless?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of chaos in numerical simulations of nonlinear systems. Participants explore the reliability of long-term simulations in chaotic regimes, questioning whether numerical errors render such simulations invalid.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes discrepancies between their numerical simulations and those reported in a paper, particularly in the chaotic regime, suggesting that chaos may render long-term simulations useless due to numerical errors.
  • Another participant draws a parallel to weather forecasting, indicating that chaos limits predictability and referencing literature on the topic.
  • Some participants propose that chaotic behavior might be an intrinsic property of the differential equations involved, rather than solely a result of numerical methods or computational limitations.
  • A later reply questions the feasibility of studying intrinsic chaotic behavior through numerical simulations, emphasizing concerns about the accuracy of results due to small numerical errors.
  • There is acknowledgment that despite concerns about numerical accuracy, some researchers continue to publish findings related to chaos in reputable journals.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the validity of numerical simulations in chaotic regimes, with no consensus reached on whether such simulations can be reliably conducted or interpreted.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight potential limitations related to numerical errors and the intrinsic nature of chaos, but do not resolve these issues or provide definitive conclusions.

wdlang
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i am now reading a prl paper

the authors used numerical simulations to study a nonlinear system

in some parameters, the authors state that system enters into chaos

My numerical simulations are the same as that of the authors in the regular regime

but in the chaos regime, my simulations are quite different from theirs.

I guess in the chaos regime, numerical simulations are useless

Due to numerical errors, the simulation results in the long term are not valid at all.
 
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That is why the weather forecast is only for 1.5-2 days. Read Steven Strogatz about chaos, it is a beautiful book.
 
1. Note that chaotic behaviour may well be intrinsic to the differential equations as such, and thus, not merely an artefact of either the discretization scheme or the finite arithmetic a computer employs.
 
arildno said:
1. Note that chaotic behaviour may well be intrinsic to the differential equations as such, and thus, not merely an artefact of either the discretization scheme or the finite arithmetic a computer employs.

yes, you are right

but if the chaotic behavior is intrinsic, how can we study it via computer?

our simulations may be absolutely wrong due to the tiny numerical errors.

But somebody is doing so in their PRL papers!
 

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