Does close systems really exist?

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In summary: not closed.the order of disorder however depends upon the way in which the box is shaken,so the system undergoes interaction,thus system is...not closed.
  • #1
nouveau_riche
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can anyone give me an example of isolated closed system?,bcoz for me there is nothing called closed system,all we can make out is to reduce the temperature of a system to such a critical point that there's hardly any interaction/exchange of energy b/w system and enviroment
 
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  • #2
nouveau_riche said:
can anyone give me an example of isolated closed system?,bcoz for me there is nothing called closed system,all we can make out is to reduce the temperature of a system to such a critical point that there's hardly any interaction/exchange of energy b/w system and enviroment
Depends whether you mean a closed system, or an isolated system. One can find many examples of the former, but there are no known examples of the latter.
 
  • #3
well, if the typical magnitude of internal changees over the time interval we are observing are much greater than the magnitude of what is lost/gained at the boundaries, the observed system can be regarded as roughly closed during the time interval of our observation.
 
  • #4
arildno said:
well, if the typical magnitude of internal changees over the time interval we are observing are much greater than the magnitude of what is lost/gained at the boundaries, the observed system can be regarded as roughly closed during the time interval of our observation.

i don't need a rough approximation ,can u give an example of any closed system ?
 
  • #5
Hootenanny said:
Depends whether you mean a closed system, or an isolated system. One can find many examples of the former, but there are no known examples of the latter.

give examples of former but with the reason signifying it's name as "closed"
 
  • #6
nouveau_riche said:
give examples of former but with the reason signifying it's name as "closed"
Why do you want examples? It is more important to understand the difference between "closed" and "isolated" systems.

A closed system is one in which mass is conserved and cannot be transferred across the boundary. An isolated system is one in which both mass and energy cannot be transferred across the boundary.
 
  • #7
Hootenanny said:
Why do you want examples? It is more important to understand the difference between "closed" and "isolated" systems.

A closed system is one in which mass is conserved and cannot be transferred across the boundary. An isolated system is one in which both mass and energy cannot be transferred across the boundary.

if u know the difference u could also give me an example
 
  • #8
nouveau_riche said:
if u know the difference u could also give me an example
I could, but I suspect that this is a homework question and I do not want to do your homework for you.

How about this: You have a think about the definitions I gave above and try to come up with some examples. I will then tell you if they're right or wrong.
 
  • #9
Hootenanny said:
I could, but I suspect that this is a homework question and I do not want to do your homework for you.

How about this: You have a think about the definitions I gave above and try to come up with some examples. I will then tell you if they're right or wrong.

firstly ,it's not my homework question,i never do my homework
secondly...i asked for the example bcoz i don't think there a system(closed) that could go from order to disorder without interacting with it's surroundings
 
  • #10
nouveau_riche said:
firstly ,it's not my homework question,i never do my homework
Er...okay.
nouveau_riche said:
secondly...i asked for the example bcoz i don't think there a system(closed) that could go from order to disorder without interacting with it's surroundings
And this is why is it vitally important to undertsand the difference between a closed system and an isolated system. A closed system doesn't exchange mass with its surroundings, but that doesn't mean it doesn't interact with its surroundings! Consider the following example. I have a sealed box with a deck of cards neatly stacked in the centre. I now shake the box so that the cards scatter inside the box. No mass has been exchanged between the box and its surroundings, but the system is now in a more disordered state that it was initially.

Notice that the second law of thermodynamics refers to an isolated system, rather than a closed system.
 
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  • #11
Hootenanny said:
And this is why is it vitally important to undertsand the difference between a closed system and an isolated system. A closed system doesn't exchange mass with its surroundings, but that doesn't mean it doesn't interact with its surroundings! Consider the following example. I have a sealed box with a deck of cards neatly stacked in the centre. I now shake the box so that the cards scatter inside the box. No mass has been exchanged between the box and its surroundings, but the system is now in a more disordered state that it was initially.

Notice that the second law of thermodynamics refers to an isolated system, rather than a closed system.

the order of disorder however depends upon the way in which the box is shaken,so the system undergoes interaction,thus system is not isolated...
i am not sure for this"does second law of thermodynamics require that a system should be left onto itself?"
or
second law of thermodynamics is applicable only to those systems which are left onto themselves ?
 
  • #12
nouveau_riche said:
the order of disorder however depends upon the way in which the box is shaken,so the system undergoes interaction,thus system is not isolated...
i am not sure for this"does second law of thermodynamics require that a system should be left onto itself?"
or
second law of thermodynamics is applicable only to those systems which are left onto themselves ?
He never said it was isolated. he said it was closed.
 
  • #13
There are lots of examples of closed systems:
A sealed mylar balloon
A piston when the valves are closed
A sealed soda can
A light bulb
Basically anything that is impermeable and physically closed is thermodynamically closed.
 
  • #14
i am not sure for this"does second law of thermodynamics require that a system should be left onto itself?"
or
second law of thermodynamics is applicable only to those systems which are left onto themselves ?
 
  • #15
nouveau_riche said:
i am not sure for this"does second law of thermodynamics require that a system should be left onto itself?"
or
second law of thermodynamics is applicable only to those systems which are left onto themselves ?
I'm afraid that I don't understand.
 
  • #16
nouveau_riche said:
can anyone give me an example of isolated closed system?,bcoz for me there is nothing called closed system,all we can make out is to reduce the temperature of a system to such a critical point that there's hardly any interaction/exchange of energy b/w system and enviroment

there is no ideal closed system but wool or cotton can be nearer to perfect closed system
 
  • #17
skanda9051 said:
there is no ideal closed system but wool or cotton can be nearer to perfect closed system
There certainly are many, many examples of real physical closed systems. I suggest that you see my previous posts regarding isolated vs. closed systems.
 
  • #18
And my post with several examples of closed systems. They are all over the place. There is no doubt that not only do closed systems exist, they are actually quite common.
 

1. Does the concept of closed systems apply to real-life situations?

Yes, the concept of closed systems is applicable to real-life situations. In science, a closed system is defined as a system that does not exchange matter or energy with its surroundings. This means that the system is isolated and does not interact with its environment. Examples of closed systems in real life include a sealed terrarium or a thermos bottle.

2. Do closed systems violate the laws of thermodynamics?

No, closed systems do not violate the laws of thermodynamics. The laws of thermodynamics state that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only transferred or converted from one form to another. In a closed system, energy may be exchanged within the system, but it cannot be gained or lost from the surroundings.

3. Can a closed system eventually become an open system?

No, a closed system cannot become an open system. Once a system is defined as closed, it means that it is isolated and does not exchange matter or energy with its surroundings. A closed system can only become an open system if it is intentionally opened or if there is a disruption that allows for matter or energy exchange.

4. How do closed systems differ from isolated systems?

Closed systems and isolated systems are often used interchangeably, but there is a subtle difference between the two. While a closed system does not exchange matter with its surroundings, it can still exchange energy. On the other hand, an isolated system does not exchange matter or energy with its surroundings. In other words, an isolated system is a special case of a closed system.

5. Are there any limitations to using the concept of closed systems?

Yes, there are limitations to using the concept of closed systems. In reality, there are no truly closed systems as all systems will eventually interact with their surroundings in some way. Closed systems are simply an idealized concept used in science to simplify complex systems and make predictions. Additionally, closed systems may not always be practical or feasible to create in real-life situations.

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