Does consciousness survive death? A BBC investigation.

[nismaratwork]

The idea is that the brain acts more as a transducer than a source. Parnia claims this notion is a logical consequence of his work. But this point is moot for our purposes. It would only be worthy of consideration if the basis for the speculaltion - the claim that thought can occur and memories can form whle there is no brain function - is validated.

I disagree... all I see is that in times where an EEG is no longer sensitive enough to be accurate, this occurs. The notion of memory formation without the involvement of the hippocampus and related structures is bordering on insane.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Im actually looking at this entirely from a physical point of view. Physically speaking, "data" on RAM is not "represented", (except to a human interpreter), it simply consists of atoms (or their elementary particles) and the electrical activity. When the power is shut off, electricity leaves the computer, it doesn't vanish.

This discussion is not appropriate. Everyone, please drop it.

The focus should be whether real memories formed while there was no brain function. Has this claim been published in a reputable journal or not?

 

[nismaratwork]

This discussion is not appropriate. Everyone, please drop it.

The focus should be whether real memories formed while there was no brain function. Has this claim been published in reputable journal or not?

The claim that memories can be formed when brain function is not detectable has been published, but it's a loner in a world of contradiction, its conclusions incredible in the face of such moderate evidence.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The claim that memories can be formed when brain function is not detectable has been published, but it's a loner in a world of contradiction, its conclusions incredible in the face of such moderate evidence.

Then you will need to provide papers refuting the published work. This isn't an opinions column.

Nor is it appropriate to speculate on theories of consciousness to explain the results. We need published papers here.

 

[pftest]

ok i drop it

 

[pftest]

The focus should be whether real memories formed while there was no brain function. Has this claim been published in a reputable journal or not?

This is from the lancet study:

Several theories have been proposed to explain NDE. We did not show that psychological, neurophysiological, or physiological factors caused these experiences after cardiac arrest. Sabom22 mentions a young American woman who had complications during brain surgery for a cerebral aneurysm. The EEG of her cortex and brainstem had become totally flat. After the operation, which was eventually successful, this patient proved to have had a very deep NDE, including an out-of-body experience, with subsequently verified observations during the period of the flat EEG.

http://profezie3m.altervista.org/archivio/TheLancet_NDE.htm

 

[nismaratwork]

The best that does is challenge our assumptions about the process of brain death, rather than your more, "on-off" binary view. This is not new, and in the context of a prospective study in which one reports... is not impressive.

Oh well... people want to believe...

 

[Forestman]

Pftest, thank you for posting that.

 

[nismaratwork]

Pftest, thank you for posting that.

Why?

 

[Forestman]

The quote from the study that he showed talked about how a particular woman had perceptions when she showed no measurable brain activity. Its an example of why the theory that the mind comes from matter cannot explain everything that happens with the mind.

If you watch the video that I posted at the beginning, not the very first one though, but the ones that You Tube shows that are next then you can watch about this particular woman. Also on this movie there is one part that talks about a theory of consciousness that states that the mind might result from quantum superposition in the microtubuals(might not be spelled right) of the neurons.

 

[nismaratwork]

The quote from the study that he showed talked about how a particular woman had perceptions when she showed no measurable brain activity. Its an example of why the theory that the mind comes from matter cannot explain everything that happens with the mind.

If you watch the video that I posted at the beginning, not the very first one though, but the ones that You Tube shows that are next then you can watch about this particular woman. Also on this movie there is one part that talks about a theory of consciousness that states that the mind might result from quantum superposition in the microtubuals(might not be spelled right) of the neurons.

Ahhh... the Penrose view, I see... although I don't subscribe to it.

I appreciate your use of "no measureable" rather than "none" by the way... it's far more accurate and telling. My concern here above all is that, "Sabom22 mentions a young American woman who had complications during brain surgery for a cerebral aneurysm...". That's the kind of thing I need more than a mention of, I'd need to see some evidence that rules out obvious malfunctions or misinterprations.

I'm also curious why, when they believed that she was clinically dead, that they would continue the surgery.

 

[Evo]

The quote from the study that he showed talked about how a particular woman had perceptions when she showed no measurable brain activity. Its an example of why the theory that the mind comes from matter cannot explain everything that happens with the mind.

If you watch the video that I posted at the beginning, not the very first one though, but the ones that You Tube shows that are next then you can watch about this particular woman. Also on this movie there is one part that talks about a theory of consciousness that states that the mind might result from quantum superposition in the microtubuals(might not be spelled right) of the neurons.

There is no evidence that she had any thoughts while her EEG was flat (and there is now proof that significant brain activity occurs that an EEG cannot detect, this is from fMRI's). The fMRI can spot where the braion activity is in response to questions or stmului. We know from studies which parts of the brain show activity in response to certain functions. She most likely hallucinated before or after the surgery. Of course she will only remember it after she comes out of the procedure.

 

[Forestman]

There is no evidence that she had any thoughts while her EEG was flat (and there is now proof that significant brain activity occurs that an EEG cannot detect, this is from fMRI's). The fMRI can spot where the brain activity is in response to questions or stmului. We know from studies which parts of the brain show activity in response to certain functions. She most likely hallucinated before or after the surgery. Of course she will only remember it after she comes out of the procedure.

That would be unlikely because she was able to describe the special instruments that were used in her operation, and she was able to repeat conversations that she over heard while out of her body, which was at a time when she had no brain activity, or blood in her brain.

 

[nismaratwork]

That would be unlikely because she was able to describe the special instruments that were used in her operation, and she was able to repeat conversations that she over heard while out of her body, which was at a time when she had no brain activity, or blood in her brain.

If she had no oxygen whatsoever in her brain, she would be dead, apoptisis would be rampant and catastrophic. You NEVER lose blood volume like that to the entire brain, and live.

MEG in addition to what Evo said, also shows that EEG is hardly a magical device to detect all activity.

 

[Forestman]

Ahhh... the Penrose view, I see... although I don't subscribe to it.

I appreciate your use of "no measureable" rather than "none" by the way... it's far more accurate and telling. My concern here above all is that, "Sabom22 mentions a young American woman who had complications during brain surgery for a cerebral aneurysm...". That's the kind of thing I need more than a mention of, I'd need to see some evidence that rules out obvious malfunctions or misinterprations.

I'm also curious why, when they believed that she was clinically dead, that they would continue the surgery.

She was made clinically dead on purpose, it was called operation standstill. It was done in order to remove the aneurysm. Her heart was stopped from beating, her lungs were stopped from breathing, and the blood was drained from her head. To prevent her body from decaying she was chilled down in temperature.

 

[Forestman]

If she had no oxygen whatsoever in her brain, she would be dead, apoptisis would be rampant and catastrophic. You NEVER lose blood volume like that to the entire brain, and live.

MEG in addition to what Evo said, also shows that EEG is hardly a magical device to detect all activity.

Her whole body was kept cold in order to stop her cells from breaking down.

 

[Evo]

That would be unlikely because she was able to describe the special instruments that were used in her operation, and she was able to repeat conversations that she over heard while out of her body, which was at a time when she had no brain activity, or blood in her brain.

Everyone knows the instruments in an operating room. Like I said, I woke up during several operations and heard and saw what was going on before I went back under. I also heard the doctor in my last operation telling them that I wouldn't remember. I am not saying that it's impossible that she had an OBE, but diving over the cliff to believing without question or proof is over the top.

 

[nismaratwork]

She was made clinically dead on purpose, it was called operation standstill. It was done in order to remove the aneurysm. Her heart was stopped from beating, her lungs were stopped from breathing, and the blood was drained from her head. To prevent her body from decaying she was chilled down in temperature.

All of what you say is true, but that isn't the loss of all oxygen to the brain, just the supply. The hypothermic treatment slows apoptosis, but slows ALL activity, making an EEG a questionable measure.

The rest of her body being 'dead' is merely a formality until the brain follows, and the sign of that is apoptosis of neurons. It's not preventing decay exactly, but this pre-programmed cell-death/suicide...

Again, I'm not seeing any kind of control her that assures she didn't learn of her operation through secondary means, along with memories of what was said during the operation. Remember, it does seem that hearing lingers even as the brain begins to 'shut down'.

Mainly, the issue is not that this didn't happen, but that it's just an illustration of the complexity of dying, much as sleep and consciousness are not always clear. This is only amazing if you presuppose that she was dead... she wasn't.

 

[nismaratwork]

Everyone knows the instruments in an operating room. Like I said, I woke up during several operations and heard and saw what was going on before I went back under. I also heard the doctor in my last operation telling them that I wouldn't remember.

Isn't that fun? "Hemostat... she'll.. don't worry..."


Oh yes, anesthesia is an art, more than a science...

 

[Forestman]

Here is a clip from the movie.

Anyway this is happening after she has been put under clinical death.

The small little Christian part at the front was not part of the original movie.

 

[Evo]

Here is a clip from the movie.

Anyway this is happening after she has been put under clinical death.

The small little Christian part at the front was not part of the original movie.

Now she's talking about a light pulling her as she stood looking at herself. In an earlier video, she said she felt someone (a nurse) was standing next to her talking, no light.

 

[Forestman]

Those were from two different parts of the movie, the link that I just posted was not the same link that I posted at the beginning of the thread. They are all from the same movie, but from different parts, and dealt with different people. The first clip did deal with a lady who was once a nurse, and then this clip that I just posted dealt with Pam Reynolds.

Here is another part of the movie, and it deals with Roger Penrose's theory on consciousness.

 

[Evo]

Those were from two different parts of the movie, the link that I just posted was not the same link that I posted at the beginning of the thread. They are all from the same movie, but from different parts, and dealt with different people. The first clip did deal with a lady who was once a nurse, and then this clip that I just posted dealt with Pam Reynolds.

Here is another part of the movie, and it deals with Roger Penrose's theory on consciousness.

I'm talking about videos about her that I looked up on my own. Her story has changed over time. I've learned that there is no sense in arguing with those that have already drunk the koolaid. So, if you choose to believe this, there's nothing I can say to make you see it objectively. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.

 

[Forestman]

I apologize.

 

[Evo]

I apologize.

No need. You believe what you believe. You may be right, you may be wrong, no one can say you are wrong, or that you are right. My own mother swears she had an OBE as a child and she rememebrs it clearly and it sounds convincing. According to her, psychic abilities run in our family and I myself have had experiences, witnessed by others, that defy rational explanation. But I remain open to the thought that there is a rational explanation. I have yet to hear a rational explanation that makes sense, especially since I wasn't the only witness to some events.

 

[MacLaddy]

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.

Have you ever considered that the statement above could go both ways?

To me the the speculation that there may be cognizant brain activity while an EEG is flat-lined is completely absurd. How could these dynamic memories be created with no measurable brain activity at all, when we know that brain activity even while sleeping has measurable results?

With that said, I agree with Evo that these memories must occur before going under, or while coming to. It would all amount to the same thing in the individuals recollection.

 

[Forestman]

Well I don't completely base my belief in the survival of consciousness on NDE's, but on a lot of things. (Not religious beliefs though. Those I don't have.) And while much of it is anecdotal, I have seen enough to convince me.

I guess I see the brain as like a radio, and the mind is like the radio waves. Even after the radio is destroyed their are still radio waves.

 

[pftest]

Another relevant paper:

Very little is known about the dying process and in particular the state of the human mind at the end of life. Cardiac arrest is the final step in the dying process irrespective of cause, and is also the closest physiological model of the dying process. Recent studies in cardiac arrest survivors have indicated that although the majority of cardiac arrest survivors have no memory recall from the event, nevertheless approximately 10% develop memories that are consistent with typical near death experiences. These include an ability to ‘see’ and recall specific detailed descriptions of the resuscitation, as verified by resuscitation staff. Many studies in humans and animals have indicated that brain function ceases during cardiac arrest, thus raising the question of how such lucid, well-structured thought processes with reasoning and memory formation can occur at such a time. This has led to much interest as regards the potential implications for the study of consciousness and its relationship with the brain, which still remains an enigma. In this article, we will review published research examining brain physiology and function during cardiac arrest as well as its potential relationship with near death experiences during this time. Finally, we will explore the contribution that near death experiences during cardiac arrest may make to the wider understanding of human consciousness.
http://www.resuscitationjournal.com/article/S0300-9572(01)00469-5/abstract
full text: http://folk.uio.no/benjamil/neardeath/neardeath3.pdf

 

[Forestman]

Thanks pftest.

 

[pftest]

No problemo.
And here are some quotes from Parnia:

Near-death experiences have been reported for centuries but in Parnia's study none of the patients were found to have received low oxygen levels, which some skeptics believe may contribute to the phenomenon.

When the brain is deprived of oxygen people become totally confused, thrash around and usually have no memories at all, Parnia said. "Here you have a severe insult to the brain but perfect memory."

Skeptics have also suggested that patients' memories occurred in the moments they were leaving or returning to consciousness. But Parnia said when a brain is traumatized by a seizure or car wreck a patient generally does not remember moments just before or after losing consciousness.

Rather, there is usually a memory lapse of hours or days. "Talk to them. They'll tell you something like: 'I just remember seeing the car and the next thing I knew I was in the hospital,"' he said.

"With cardiac arrest, the insult to the brain is so severe it stops the brain completely. Therefore, I would expect profound memory loss before and after the incident," he added.

Since the initial experiment, Parnia and his colleagues have found more than 3,500 people with lucid memories that apparently occurred at times they were thought to be clinically dead.
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=98447&page=2