Does constant DC current in curved wire produce EM wave?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around whether a constant DC current in a curved wire produces electromagnetic (EM) waves, particularly focusing on the implications of accelerating electric charges in such a configuration. The scope includes theoretical considerations, potential radiation effects, and comparisons with cyclotron radiation.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that accelerating electric charges produce EM waves, questioning if the radial acceleration of charges in a curved wire leads to radiation.
  • Others mention cyclotron radiation, suggesting that centripetal acceleration in a curved wire could cause weak EM waves.
  • Some participants assert that there is no radiation from a DC current in a closed loop, as the radiation from uniformly spaced charges destructively interferes, leading to no net radiation as the number of charges increases.
  • A participant raises the scenario of a wire that is not a closed loop, asking if this changes the outcome regarding radiation.
  • Concerns are expressed about the conditions under which cyclotron radiation occurs, particularly emphasizing the low speed of electrons in a wire and the implications for radiation strength.
  • Some participants reference literature that discusses the conditions for radiation due to centripetal acceleration, noting that the frequency and radius of curvature must be considered to avoid cancellation of radiation.
  • There is a discussion about the role of charge density uniformity in radiation, with some suggesting that non-uniform spacing of charges could lead to radiation, while uniform spacing results in cancellation.
  • Clarifications are made regarding the distinction between constant DC current and alternating current, with emphasis on the nature of charge movement in different contexts.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on whether a constant DC current in a curved wire produces EM waves. Multiple competing views are presented regarding the conditions under which radiation may or may not occur, particularly in relation to charge distribution and the nature of the current.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on definitions of current types, the assumptions about charge distribution, and the unresolved mathematical considerations regarding radiation from accelerating charges.

  • #31
jasonRF said:
Note that if ##\mathbf{J}## has no time dependence (like for a continuous DC current loop), then neither does ##\mathbf{A}## so the fields will be DC. That is, it will not radiate.
Why if ##\mathbf A## has not time dependence then the DC current loop does not radiate ?
 
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  • #32
cianfa72 said:
Why if ##\mathbf A## has not time dependence then the DC current loop does not radiate ?
Because the magnetic field ##\vec{B}\left(\vec{x},t\right)=\vec{\nabla}\times\vec{A}\left(\vec{x},t\right)##. If the vector potential has no time dependence then neither does the magnetic field. But radiation fields must oscillate with time, so: no time-dependence ##\Rightarrow## no radiation.
 
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  • #33
renormalize said:
But radiation fields must oscillate with time, so: no time-dependence ##\Rightarrow## no radiation.
Ok, therefore there is a flow of EM energy in the space surrounding the wires (from the source to the load) as described by the Poynting vector field, however the DC circuit does not radiate.
 
  • #34
A trapezoidal current pulse, with a rise-time, a flat top, and a fall-time, can be described by a Fourier transform. All the harmonics that make up the pulse are present throughout the pulse.

Energy flows continuously to the load during the flat period we call DC. How does that energy reach the load if it is not through a non-zero Poynting vector?

For what duration does the flat top need to be maintained stable, before the harmonics cease to be part of the continuous radiation of energy to the load?
 
  • #35
Baluncore said:
Energy flows continuously to the load during the flat period we call DC. How does that energy reach the load if it is not through a non-zero Poynting vector?
I'm not sure whether Poynting vector field and Poynting theorem actually makes sense only in case ##E## and ##B## are solutions of the EM wave equation.

Does Poynting vector field actually represents a "real" flux of EM energy only in the above case (for example flowing through a given surface) ?
 
  • #36
cianfa72 said:
I'm not sure whether Poynting vector field and Poynting theorem actually makes sense only in case ##E## and ##B## are solutions of the EM wave equation.
As pointed out by Feynman, even static EM fields give rise to Poynting vector fields that represent flows of EM energy that circulate continuously (but without radiating). See the Wikipedia entry Static Fields and its reference to the Feynman lectures.
 
  • #37
renormalize said:
See the Wikipedia entry Static Fields and its reference to the Feynman lectures.

From Wikipedia
While the circulating energy flow may seem unphysical, its existence is necessary to maintain conservation of angular momentum. The momentum of an electromagnetic wave in free space is equal to its power divided by c, the speed of light. Therefore, the circular flow of electromagnetic energy implies an angular momentum
Here it talks of momentum of electromagnetic wave in free space (bold is mine). Does it mean that ##E## and ##B## are actually solution of EM wave equation ?
 
  • #38
cianfa72 said:
From Wikipedia

Here it talks of momentum of electromagnetic wave in free space (bold is mine). Does it mean that ##E## and ##B## are actually solution of EM wave equation ?
Yes, but since the fields are static, the EM "wave" satisfies a "wave-equation" with vanishing time derivatives, i.e., Laplace's equation: ##\nabla^{2}\vec{E}=\nabla^{2}\vec{B}=0##.
 
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  • #39
renormalize said:
Yes, but since the fields are static, the EM "wave" satisfies a "wave-equation" with vanishing time derivatives, i.e., Laplace's equation: ##\nabla^{2}\vec{E}=\nabla^{2}\vec{B}=0##.
There is therefore a flow of EM energy, however it is "confined" in the space surrounding the DC circuit: there is not a flow of EM energy that radiates/propagates out from there.
 
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