Does derivative formula work for all parametric equations

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the applicability of the derivative formula for parametric equations, specifically whether the formula for calculating the derivative \(\frac{dy}{dx} = \frac{\frac{dy}{dt}}{\frac{dx}{dt}}\) holds true even when \(y\) is not a function of \(x\). Participants explore examples, such as the unit circle, and question the conditions under which the formula is valid or fails.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that the derivative formula requires \(y\) to be a function of \(x\) for it to be valid, citing the vertical-line test as a criterion.
  • Others argue that the formula can still apply in cases where \(y\) is not explicitly a function of \(x\), using the unit circle as an example.
  • A participant suggests that if \(x\) and \(y\) depend on different parameters without a formal relation, the derivative \(\frac{\partial{y}}{\partial{x}}\) would not be meaningful.
  • Some contributions emphasize that the dependency between \(x\) and \(y\) exists even if \(y\) cannot be expressed as a function of \(x\), and they discuss implications of this dependency on the derivative.
  • One participant mentions the inverse function theorem, indicating that if one variable has a zero derivative with respect to another, then no local inverse function exists, which may affect the applicability of the derivative formula.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether the derivative formula is universally applicable to parametric equations. There is no consensus on the conditions under which the formula fails or holds true, indicating ongoing debate and exploration of the topic.

Contextual Notes

Some limitations are noted regarding the assumptions about the relationships between the parameters \(t\) and \(s\), as well as the implications of self-intersecting curves on the validity of the derivative formula.

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The derivative for the parametric equations ##x=f(t)## and ##y=g(t)## is given by

##\frac{dy}{dx}=\frac{\Big(\frac{dy}{dt}\Big)}{\Big(\frac{dx}{dt}\Big)}##

The proof of the above formula requires that ##y## be a function of ##x##, as seen in http://tutorial.math.lamar.edu/Classes/CalcII/ParaTangent.aspx

But somehow the formula works even if ##y## is not a function of ##x##, for example, it works for the unit circle ##x^2+y^2=1##, whose parametric equations are ##x=\cos t## and ##y=\sin t##.

Does the formula always work as long as the relation between ##x## and ##y## can be parametrised even if ##y## is not a function of ##x##? If not, what is a counterexample? For what parametric equations does the formula fail?

Note: A function is a relation that passes the vertical-line test.

Edit: We exclude cases where the curve intersects itself because the derivative doesn't exist at the intersecting points.
 
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If both, ##x=x(t)## and ##y=y(t)## depend on a parameter ##t##, then they depend on each other. In the simplest case it's ##y(t) = y(x^{-1}(t))##. In general one might need some local inversion properties.
Your example is even without a parametrization no counterexample, since ##x^2+y^2=1## already establishes a dependency ##y(x)##.

It won't be possible, if you say ##x=x(t)## and ##y=y(s)## and there is no (formal) relation between ##s## and ##t.## In this case ##\frac{\partial{y}}{\partial{x}}## wouldn't make sense.
 
fresh_42 said:
If both, ##x=x(t)## and ##y=y(t)## depend on a parameter ##t##, then they depend on each other. In the simplest case it's ##y(t) = y(x^{-1}(t))##. In general one might need some local inversion properties.
Your example is even without a parametrization no counterexample, since ##x^2+y^2=1## already establishes a dependency ##y(x)##.

It won't be possible, if you say ##x=x(t)## and ##y=y(s)## and there is no (formal) relation between ##s## and ##t.## In this case ##\frac{\partial{y}}{\partial{x}}## wouldn't make sense.

I thought ##y(x)## means ##y## is a function of ##x##? But for ##x^2+y^2=1##, ##y## is not a function of ##x##. The unit circle fails the vertical-line test.
 
Happiness said:
I thought ##y(x)## means ##y## is a function of ##x##? But for ##x^2+y^2=1##, ##y## is not a function of ##x##. The unit circle fails the vertical-line test.
You could resolve it by separately consider the two branches ##y = ± \sqrt{1-x^2}##.
Whether you can explicitly write ##y=y(x)## or not doesn't change the dependency. It makes the difference between ##\frac{dy}{dx} = 0## and ##\frac{dy}{dx} ≠ 0.##
Your example becomes
$$0 = \frac{d}{dx} 1 = \frac{d{x^2}}{d{x}} + \frac{d{y^2}}{d{x}} = 2x + 2y \frac{d{y}}{d{x}} \text{ and therefore } x+ y \cdot \frac{d{y}}{d{x}} = 0$$
If ##y## and ##x## were independent then ##x## would be a constant function and not a coordinate of a circle.
 
If one variable has a zero derivative with respect to another variable then no inverse function in that neighborhood exists - and this is part of a theorem known as the inverse function theorem which looks at determinants of matrices in higher dimensions.

If two things are related then there is a functional mapping between them of some sort (you may have to "unwind" the mapping so that you don't have branch cuts and you maintain an actual one to one functional correspondence).

If a derivative is zero everywhere then no relation between the two variables exists at all.
 

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