Does Perception Equal Reality in Epistemology and Identity?

[Rade]

It is advisable to find out what mysticism is before forming an opinions on it. It isn't rocket science after all.

I cannot agree more, and of course this same logic holds for the false statements you have just made concerning the philosophy of Ayn Rand. For example, you fault Rand for holding "uncertain axioms" but, if I take you at your word, how does her approach from "uncertain axoims" then differ from the "uncertain axioms" upon which you base the argument in favor of the philosophy of mysticism ? And, what of the "uncertain axioms" used by Aristotle's to conclude that "knowledge is identical with its object" ?, and thus the "uncertain axoims" applied by Descarte to form his 'cogito' ?. In fact, Rand rejects both of these so-called approaches from "uncertain axioms"--although it is true she is much closer to Aristotle than Descarte.

Let us assume that Rand-woman meets Mystical-man, what type of philosophy would they hold, and why would they hold it ? What would they have in common ? If I can get at this, perhaps I will better be able to form an opinon about the logical possibility of mysticism as a route to knowledge.

 

[selfAdjoint]

how does her approach from "uncertain axoims" then differ from the "uncertain axioms" upon which you base the argument in favor of the philosophy of mysticism ?

How does the uncertainty or otherwise of the axioms for mysticism in any way make the axioms for objectivism less uncertain?

 

[W A Dunkley]

How does the uncertainty or otherwise of the axioms for mysticism in any way make the axioms for objectivism less uncertain?

there are an incalculable number of ways to formulate axioms and logical truths, but there is only one basic axiom, the law of identity. The law of non-contradiction simply states the law of identity in reverse. It state that there can be no non-identity. The law of identity is the most basic law of existence (and one needs not spin on ones head while contemplating ones navel in order to grasp this.) The attempt to formulate a more basic axiom of existence, such as Ayn Rands "existence exist," remains an axiom only because it is an assertion of identity. And therefore as such is not more fundamental than the principle of self-sameness. This view of axioms may be regarded as the monistic view of axioms. Logical truths are complex assertions of identity, but all axioms and logical truths assert the same thing, the existence of self-sameness. In an of themselves this is all they assert, all that they prove and all that they account for. Axioms are the imitable ground of all knowledge and they must not equated with postulates or common sense assumptions with may prove to be false.

There are no axioms for mysticism. Mysticism is the rejection of the axiom (and as they say in west Texas, "your one natural born fool if you don't believe it.") But, for the sake of not ruffling feathers, let's just say that this is true of mysticism as it is defined within the context of my philosophy. One may squabble over the word, but there can be know doubt that such doctrines exists.

 

[max1975]

Let us assume that Rand-woman meets Mystical-man, what type of philosophy would they hold, and why would they hold it ? What would they have in common ? If I can get at this, perhaps I will better be able to form an opinon about the logical possibility of mysticism as a route to knowledge.

Here's my suggestion, for whatever it's worth:

First comes the admission that some aspects of reality are non-rational, akin to the idea of a singularity where the laws of physics no longer function.

Second is the desire to know about these aspects of reality anyway.

Third is the understanding that if you acquire this knowledge, you will not be able to give a rational explanation of it.

Fourth is to begin studying. There are lots of different ways to do this--I would recommend trying different approaches without conceding any of them to be authorative.

Fifth is to continue to reason vigorously--anything that yields to reason is not the thing you're ultimately looking for.

Someone might argue with #5 and say that it is necessary to suspend reason. I think you will reach a point where reason suspends itself--when it starts going around in circles is a good clue.

As for what philosophy you will hold if you complete this process successfully, I can't tell you that, and don't let anyone else tell you either.

 

[Les Sleeth]

Let us assume that Rand-woman meets Mystical-man, what type of philosophy would they hold, and why would they hold it ? What would they have in common ? If I can get at this, perhaps I will better be able to form an opinon about the logical possibility of mysticism as a route to knowledge.

I'll take a shot at this. I am guessing you mean: are the two perspectives reconcilable. I am someone who practices, relies on, and has great faith in the inner experience to give me knowledge. But the knowledge the experience gives isn’t about “objects” much. What I get from it, knowledge-wise, is a sense of unity, wholeness, and continuity that is behind a universe filled with objects. If I want knowledge of those objects, then the way I would approach it I believe would be acceptible to Ms. Rand.

So if Ms. Rand and I met, I would be able to agree with what she had to say about investigating objects, but I’d have to tell her that I possesses another way of knowing which has nothing at all to do with objects. What she would say I don’t know. Some of the people here who only believe in studying objects tell me they doubt what I say is possible, but then they haven’t attempted to learn the inner methods that bring the experience I am talking about either.

 

[Rade]

The attempt to formulate a more basic axiom of existence, such as Ayn Rands "existence exist," remains an axiom only because it is an assertion of identity. And therefore as such is not more fundamental than the principle of self-sameness.

But of course Rand would disagree--the "A" that allows for the Law of Identity first has to either (1) exist, or (2) not-exist before it can have "identity" of self-sameness. The primary axiom of "existence" (not the "identity" of any individual existent) is inescapable in any attempt to do philosophy--the only other option is to hold that that "non-existence" is the starting point. And, in fact, this is what some theories of physics do, they start the universe from a quantum emergence of some-thing from no-thing using the uncertainty principle as the uncaused cause. I suppose there is one other option, that the state [existence + non-existence] as a fundamentally entangled state is the primary axiom whence philosophy begins, in such case, perhaps we have then the source of mysticism as coming from non-existence as a sort of hidden variable, outside human knowledge ?

 

[Canute]

I cannot agree more, and of course this same logic holds for the false statements you have just made concerning the philosophy of Ayn Rand. For example, you fault Rand for holding "uncertain axioms" but, if I take you at your word, how does her approach from "uncertain axoims" then differ from the "uncertain axioms" upon which you base the argument in favor of the philosophy of mysticism ?

That's a very good question. SelfAdjoint rightly makes the point that it doesn't matter what the answer to it is as far as your argument is concerned (or, as my grandmother used to say, two wrongs don't make a right). But still, if it cannot be answered then mysticism is bunk. This is because mystics claim to know what is is true, not that they have a good theory or hypothesis.

Aristotle wrote, and I think all philosophers agree, that the most certain kind of axioms we can have are those that are self-evident. Self-evident knowledge can only be knowledge of oneself. This can be seen from the fact that it is not self-evident that solipsism is false. If it cannot be self-evidently known that anything apart from ourselves exists then self-evident knowledge can only be knowledge of ourselves.

It might be objected that it's self-evident that things apart from ourselves exist. However, even physicists are now agreed that naive realism is false, things are not as they appear to be, and this alone makes it impossible to argue that solipsism is self-evidently false, even in the weak sense of 'almost certainly false'.

Self-evident knowledge has to be known to us by means other than our phsyical senses or by our reason. This is because it is self-evident that both our senses and our reason can deceive us. We might be dreaming, insane, confused, ignorant, deluded, in the Matrix, being fooled by Descartes' evil demon and so on. So any axiom based on knowledge acquired solely by means of our senses or our reason is not self-evidently true.

Does Ayn Rand takes it as axiomatic that consciousness is caused by brains? The result can only be a pack of cards. However when Descartes chose "Cogito" he chose a self-evident axiom. Exactly what he meant by "I" is an interesting question but not important here. We know what he meant. It was self-evident to him that he knew some entity he thought was himself thinking really did exist, and really did exist even if it turned out that solipsism were true. This is self-evident knowledge. (With a qualification that isn't relevant here).

This makes some sense of Aristotle's comment that "true knowledge is identical with its object", that there must be an identity of subject and object, knower and known, in the case of true and certain knowledge. If all we can know for certain is knowledge of ourselves then all that can be known is the knower. Here the flavour of the words become more 'mystical'-sounding, but it's just everyday epistemology. True knowledge is knowledge by identity because that's the only kind that can be self-evident. This knowledge may be called immediate, unmediated or direct, knowledge by acqaintance, or 'non-intuitive immediate knowledge' in some meanings.

Such knowledge can't be self-evident to anyone else of course, if it's your knowledge. We can't know what someone else does or does not know. We cannot know whether someone else knows anything at all. Whatever Descartes thought it's not self-evident to me that he ever existed. Zen masters repeatedly warn that knowledge cannot be borrowed. It's a sort of cosmic joke, the only true knowledge is the kind that cannot be communicated.

Your question can be addressed more mathematically as well, by reference to the incompleteness theorems, Goedel's infinite regression of metsystems and so on, if you're into that sort of thing. But that's a can of worms. It can also be answered more philosophically, by reference to Plato's cave allegory.

Does that answer the question? I hope so. It is impossible to take mysticism seriously if one thinks that mystical knowledge can only be uncertain or is irrational. In mystical practice, in Buddhism, Taoism, Essenism, Advaita Vedanta, Sufism, Christian mysticism and so forth, aka the 'mystical religions,' one either knows something or one does not. One can conjecture, or course, but philosophising is not considered a substitute for knowing, and in Sufism is actually discouraged as leading to nothing but confusion. There is no talk of competing theories. Knower and known are ultimately one, and knower and known together constitute all that there is. Thus mystics speak of omniscience without breaking Aristotle's rule of identity.

And, what of the "uncertain axioms" used by Aristotle's to conclude that "knowledge is identical with its object" ?, and thus the "uncertain axoims" applied by Descarte to form his 'cogito' ?. In fact, Rand rejects both of these so-called approaches from "uncertain axioms"--although it is true she is much closer to Aristotle than Descartes.

We cannot know how Aristotle arrived at his conclusion, but I think if you spend ten minutes considering what you know and how you know it you'll reach the same one. "Mystical knowledge" is a grand phrase, but it may, I think, mean only knowledge by identity, and that includes simple stuff like "cogito," or "I'm hot". More generally, it includes "what it is like," which in consciousness studies is the most common definition of consciousness. You yourself know 'what it is like' to be you, having whatever experiences you are having at some time. These experiences may or may not be delusions, in some sense, and for the most part they are according to mystics, nevertheless you know that you're having them. That's mystical knowledge. To get more you just go deeper. As Les says, there's only one way of investigating the nature and source of love. The same goes for the nature and source of knowledge, the problem of how human beings know things.

Let us assume that Rand-woman meets Mystical-man, what type of philosophy would they hold, and why would they hold it ? What would they have in common ? If I can get at this, perhaps I will better be able to form an opinon about the logical possibility of mysticism as a route to knowledge.

The odd thing about the mystical view is that it does not contradict any of the main competing views but encompasses them. It is a meta-view, sometimes called the view from nowhere. It is only a whisker away from materialism, but just as close to idealism. It is not theistic, but if Rand-woman asserted that that God existed Mystical-man would not disagree. The truth is explained as being more subtle. Neither do mystics have any argument with science, except where science over-reaches itself and makes metaphysical assumptions. They've been arguing that naive realism is false since the dawn of recorded human history, and quantum cosmologists are coming ever nearer to the view given by the writers of the Upanishads, as Schroedinger argued a century ago. The proof of the incompleteness theorem just further confirms that view. If Western philosophy has made no progress since Plato then that is just what one would expect to be the case if the the universe is as described in the mystical literature.

I feel there's no problem showing the "logical possibility of mysticism as a route to knowledge." It can be done by the straightforward use of logic even if I haven't managed to do so here. However, showing that mystical practice really is a route to knowledge is another matter. For logical and practical reasons this is something that one can only do for oneself. Happily, it is repeatedly claimed in the literature that anyone can do it.

Cheers
Canute

 

[W A Dunkley]

Here's my suggestion, for whatever it's worth:

First comes the admission that some aspects of reality are non-rational, akin to the idea of a singularity where the laws of physics no longer function.

Second is the desire to know about these aspects of reality anyway.

Third is the understanding that if you acquire this knowledge, you will not be able to give a rational explanation of it.

All of this is fundamentally, absurd! Knowledge is not achieved through a whimsical "desire." "The admission (or rather the claim!) that some aspects of reality are non-rational" negates the claim that any aspects of reality are "rational."

Knowledge is only achieved by the recognition that all A is A. Everything must ultimately agree with reasons fundamental premise. This incontrovertible truth proves that the world must be, in this respect, rational and knowable. Since all knowledge must be grounded on this axiom, to embrace the "non-rational" is to negate all claim to any knowledge or even a justification for an opinion. (e.g., If the axiom is not regarded as absolute by what magic are we to decide when it applies?)

It doesn't matter how one acquires information about reality, knowledge ultimately rest on the axiom.

For more on this: http://examinedlifejournal.com/articles/template.php?shorttitle=evasion&authorid=23

 

[max1975]

All of this is fundamentally, absurd! Knowledge is not achieved through a whimsical "desire."

Not achieved, no, but if you do not desire knowledge you will not look for it, and if you don't look for it you won't find it.

"The admission (or rather the claim!) that some aspects of reality are non-rational" negates the claim that any aspects of reality are "rational."

Not at all. It does negate the claim that things are necessarily rational, but that is not the same thing.

Knowledge is only achieved by the recognition that all A is A.

All A is A is really not getting me anywhere. It follows that all B is B, all C is C, etc., and tells me nothing about the relationship between them. I accept that A is A, but as you yourself have said, this is self-evident and cannot be explained by reason. What cannot be explained by reason, I call non-rational.

Everything must ultimately agree with reasons fundamental premise. This incontrovertible truth proves that the world must be, in this respect, rational and knowable. Since all knowledge must be grounded on this axiom, to embrace the "non-rational" is to negate all claim to any knowledge or even a justification for an opinion. (e.g., If the axiom is not regarded as absolute by what magic are we to decide when it applies?)

You still haven't really told me what A is--and you can't, not using reason. To know what A is, for it to be self-evident to me, I cannot simply accept your assertion. I need to experience A for myself.

To make things ever-so-slightly more concrete, suppose I say, "Non-rational is non-rational." I am in agreement with your principle. If you tell me "Non-rational is non-existent," you're the one who's violating the axiom.

 

[W A Dunkley]

but if you do not desire knowledge you will not look for it, and if you don't look for it you won't find it.

Funny, I was just thinkin the same thing!

All A is A is really not getting me anywhere. It follows that all B is B, all C is C, etc., and tells me nothing about the relationship between them.

Well, for one thing it tells you that relationships must be non-contradictory.

I accept that A is A, but as you yourself have said, this is self-evident and cannot be explained by reason. What cannot be explained by reason, I call non-rational.

If you are really looking for knowledge at least be rigorous and honest enough to not mis-represent me- I have never said nor would I ever agree that the axiom "cannot be explained by reason." I don't know why you have conjured this up, but I find it hard to believe that it stems from a desire for knowledge. The axiom proves the existence of identity. There is no explanation more rationally incontrovertible.

You still haven't really told me what A is--and you can't, not using reason. To know what A is, for it to be self-evident to me, I cannot simply accept your assertion. I need to experience A for myself.

To make things ever-so-slightly more concrete, suppose I say, "Non-rational is non-rational." I am in agreement with your principle. If you tell me "Non-rational is non-existent," you're the one who's violating the axiom.

Non-rational is an "existent' notion with no reference to reality; the statement "A is not A" exists, but that which it asserts, non-identity, does not. This does not violate the axiom.

It does not matter what "A" is, because all A is A. The statement "the tooth fairy is the tooth fairy" asserts something true of reality and it isn't the existence of the tooth fairy. This statement does not assert an prove the existence of "A;" it asserts and proves the existence of self-sameness. Everything else that exists must posess identity (i.e., self-sameness.) To deny this is to deny that all A is A.

The most fundamental thing that exists is not "A;" it is the thing described, asserted and proven by the axiom, such as the statement "A is A." This is identity. Everything that exists is reducible to, and derived from self-sameness. Identity is the only primary thing that exists.

 

[max1975]

Funny, I was just thinkin the same thing!

The why didn't you say so, or keep silent, instead of attributing to me the nonsensical claim that a whimsical desire by itself achieves knowledge?

Well, for one thing it tells you that relationships must be non-contradictory.

This is an assertion; I am not convinced. I see contradictory relationships all the time. I believe there is a non-contradictory solution to most if not all problems, but this is a belief and is not proven by evidence.

If you are really looking for knowledge at least be rigorous and honest enough to not mis-represent me- I have never said nor would I ever agree that the axiom "cannot be explained by reason." I don't know why you have conjured this up, but I find it hard to believe that it stems from a desire for knowledge.

I conjured it up from reading this:

The proof of the axiom is intrinsic. If it is not acknowledged, it can never be extrinsically proven.

I thought it a fair reading of your statement.

The axiom proves the existence of identity.

No, it doesn't. It asserts the existence of identity. "Identity" is the abstraction that is required for your system of reason to function--and your system of reason is only as good as its foundation. Which means the abstraction must match observation. Which is why when you repeatedly assert that "It doesn't matter what A is," I repeatedly fail to see any meaning in your argument. In real life, identity is not such a simple thing--most often it is an arbitrarily drawn line. In fact, to identify anything is to invent an abstraction and make an assertion.

"This is a pencil," but of course what it really is is a thing that looks and behaves like other things that my brain has previously used the word "pencil" to identify. And no, it's not really a thing, it just looks and behaves similarly to other things I've called "thing."

And it's not even "it". All this, of course, comes after the initial decision (arbitrary mental process) that this "pencil" is the thing I'm talking about, ignoring all the other visual data that presents things that don't even remotely resemble my idea of "pencil." If I grab it by the eraser, am I touching the pencil?

Geeze. I started out sympathetic to your argument, wanting some clarification, though not convinced "Identity is the only primary thing that exists." Now you've got me questioning whether identity even exists at all. It's looking kind of like something that's been invented just to help us pretend we're communicating.

I'll take one more stab at clarity. I think your idea of "Identity" is a good and useful thing, and in order to have a rational discussion, it helps tremendously if all parties accept it. However, you are claiming much more than this, and I'm not buying it.

 

[Rade]

First, I learned much from your last post--thanks for taking the time. It really does come down to axioms. For example, this axiom you cite:

Aristotle wrote, and I think all philosophers agree, that the most certain kind of axioms we can have are those that are self-evident. Self-evident knowledge can only be knowledge of oneself.

But, what if I don't agree ? What if I hold first as "the most certain kind of axiom" that either (1) existence exists or (2) existence does not exist, and that I hold this as self-evident knowledge. I do not see why this cannot be the most certain kind of axiom that is self-evident to me.

Next, suppose I reject # (2) for the simple reason that if existence does not exist then I would not be writing these words. Now, if I hold as self-evident that existence-exists (note I say nothing about anyone existent), I must then reject Descarte, because his argument would then be backward, and the correct form should be : I am (e.g. exist), thus, I think. This is clearly self-evident to me because it is illogical for me to "think", before there is first some "thing" that can "think", which must then be the "I am" of "me". I also note that when God was asked who he/she was, the answer was "I am", just call me "I am"--in other words, God does not need to think that he/she is to know that he/she is--it is self evident that God first exists (I am), and all else follows from there.

Now, I also find that I don't agree with this second axiom you hold:

This can be seen from the fact that it is not self-evident that solipsism is false.

But, if I hold as self-evident that "existence-exists" is the most certain of all axioms in philosophy, then it is also self-evident that solipsism is false. Why ? because solipsism is defined as the thought that nothing exists or is real but the "self" (Webster). But, as shown above, before a "self" can hold any claim to exist, first must come the axiom "existence exists", then each "self" can claim to only know that they exist. If quantum mechanics falsifies anything it is solipsism--QM tells us that the "self" (observer) is not needed for two objects to co-mingle. Only the probability of becoming a self is real.

Now, I find I also do not agree with your third axiom:

Self-evident knowledge has to be known to us by means other than our phsyical senses or by our reason. This is because it is self-evident that both our senses and our reason can deceive us.

What if I hold as self evident knowledge that "nothing is self-evident except for the material of sensory perception". Your axiom holds that "sensations" are the self-evident given (reason is much latter derived and has no place here), my axiom holds that "percepts" are the self-evident given. This is an important difference because, while sensations may deceive, by definition, perceptions can never deceive because it is self evident to all humans that perceptions must always have "error" or "uncertainty" connected to them. Thus if I have a priori knowledge that perception always comes with error, then I can never be deceived by that which I know has error. Surprised perhaps to experience an error, but never deceived.

Finally, your question:

Does Ayn Rand take it as axiomatic that consciousness is caused by brains?

According to Rand, "consciousness is the faculty of perceiving that which exists". "Awareness is not a passive state, but an active process".

But it is not clear to me that Rand holds that consciousness is "caused" by brains". Clearly, she holds that consciousness is located within the brain, but so to is "subconscious", plus many other brain functions (sight, smell, taste, ect.). What is clear is that Rand holds that "consciousness has a specific nature with specific cognitive needs", thus an identity. What is the cause of this identity--I am not sure ? What is the cause of any part of the human body ? -- perhaps the union and development of the DNA within egg and sperm is the "cause of consciousness" found in many animals including man.

 

[max1975]

Now, if I hold as self-evident that existence-exists (note I say nothing about anyone existent), I must then reject Descarte, because his argument would then be backward, and the correct form should be : I am (e.g. exist), thus, I think. This is clearly self-evident to me because it is illogical for me to "think", before there is first some "thing" that can "think", which must then be the "I am" of "me".

Descartes has many problems, but I think he's on stable ground here. That he thinks proves that he is (because, like you say, there must be something doing the thinking), but that he is does not prove that he thinks. Plenty of things exist and (to all appearances) don't think.

 

[Royce]

I don't think Rand knew the slightest thing about the mystical experience. She stood outside it all and thought she was so smart she could understand something profound without the slightest need to experience if for herself. Why should we listen to her?

Isn't that a form of mysticism itself. While I am a great fan of Rands writing her philosophy of objectivism leaves much, too much, left unsaid and unexplained.
It too is a dogma as well as mystical in her own terms. To me objectivism is a form of pragmatic realism that is a form of materialism and or physicalism.

As Max said, an identity is a non informative, dead ended statement. If we limited our knowledge to only that which can be verified, experienced and deducted by reason, we would still be living in caves.

Intuition is not mystical nor is creative, imaginative thinking (outside the box etc).

 

[Royce]

Of course all humans are subjects, that gain "knowledge" by perceiving objects--this is fundamental to Rand's theory of knowledge.

If this is the case then it is a false not all inclusive statements. We can perceive an airplane yet know nothing about airplanes, what they are or what they do or how they do it. Perception is not the gaining of knowledge or understanding. We can perceive a light in the shy but know nothing about it. Is it a planet, a star, and airplane a UFO or mystical signal from God?
Knowledge comes from experience and understanding. Information comes from perception. "Hey! there is a light in the sky." is all that we can say when perceiving a light in the sky. That is information not knowledge.

But, it is illogical to hold that you are not a biological being made of parts (e.g., an object composed of cells, tissue, organs, etc.)--and that your "subjective brain waves" do not commute with the other parts of your objective body. Your subjective self "knows" that you are a biological object (e.g., you receive external evidence) every time you look in a mirror--or at your arm, or leg, etc.

You are assuming, incorrectly, I think, that the subjective "me" is the same, an identity, as my physical biological body. My identity, my consciousness, my "me" normally inhabits my body but I am more than my physical body. Consciousness, being, me-ness is subjective not objective. I can measure, touch and feel any objective body. I cannot ever touch, feel or measure my or any others consciousness, being or "me"

The "intrinsic knowledge" that Rand calls mysticism has nothing to do with "knowledge of self as subject", because such knowledge is impossible without knowledge that a "subject" must be "something", some object that exists that the subject has knowledge of--thus you have no conflict with Rand on this issue. Knowledge of "subject as object" is a linked concept, like the heads and tails of the coin--they cannot be separated. The "intrinsic knowledge" that Rand takes issue with derives from such concepts as supernatural, superstition, intuition, emotions, revelation, etc.

This is where Rand falls short and incorporates her own contradiction. A subject is not an object. Objectivism is not an object but a thought, an idea, a philosophy that has no objective reality and cannot ever be perceived by our senses, thus, according to her, can never be known since it cannot be perceived. This is the common flaw in all materialistic, physicalistic and objectivistic philosophies. They deny their own existence and therefore can not be known. Just as you assume that "me" is a biological object, but "me-ness is a subjective experience that you can not ever perceive.

There exists, is real, that which cannot be perceived and can be known and experienced.

 

[Royce]

there are an incalculable number of ways to formulate axioms and logical truths, but there is only one basic axiom, the law of identity. The law of non-contradiction simply states the law of identity in reverse. It state that there can be no non-identity. The law of identity is the most basic law of existence (and one needs not spin on ones head while contemplating ones navel in order to grasp this.) The attempt to formulate a more basic axiom of existence, such as Ayn Rands "existence exist," remains an axiom only because it is an assertion of identity. And therefore as such is not more fundamental than the principle of self-sameness. This view of axioms may be regarded as the monistic view of axioms. Logical truths are complex assertions of identity, but all axioms and logical truths assert the same thing, the existence of self-sameness. In an of themselves this is all they assert, all that they prove and all that they account for. Axioms are the imitable ground of all knowledge and they must not equated with postulates or common sense assumptions with may prove to be false.

There are no axioms for mysticism. Mysticism is the rejection of the axiom (and as they say in west Texas, "your one natural born fool if you don't believe it.") But, for the sake of not ruffling feathers, let's just say that this is true of mysticism as it is defined within the context of my philosophy. One may squabble over the word, but there can be know doubt that such doctrines exists.

You are correct in saying that there are no axioms for mysticism because there axioms are derived truths seen as complete concepts after much deep meditation. The problem is that you and Rand et al take it no further. "Existence exists" or existence is, is a deep fundamental truth of Zen like enlightenment. Identity as you call it is a profound truth that reality is, reality is real and the physical universe is like an illusion when compared to that profound truth.

Reality is. Reality is real. There is one, only one reality. All that is, is real and of that one reality. Simple now obvious corollaries are that, as all that is, is real and one, is that there can be, no contradictions and paradoxes. Another is that there is only that which is real and natural. There can be no supernatural or outside of natural, out side of real, i.e. unreal does not exist; unreal is not real. If it is, it is real and it is natural.

Ideas, thoughts, truths, philosophies, consciousness, self awareness and self identity exists. they are real. They, as I said earlier cannot be perceived by the senses but only known and experienced yet they are real. They are just as real as I am, just as you are.

There is nothing mystical, supernatural, magical or unreal about mysticism. Mysticism is experiencing, knowing truth without physical perception.

I ask only; "How did you, any of you, come to the conclusion that the prime axiom is Identity?" Did you see in with your eyes? Did you measure it with a yard stick? Did you touch it and feel it? Did you compare is with other such objects? Or did you think about it, contemplate it, study it and come to know the truth of it, the profundity and fundamentalism of it.

If, as I suspect, it was the latter, then you, sir, are a mystic as is Ayn Rand. God Bless her objective heart!

 

[Royce]

Descartes has many problems, but I think he's on stable ground here. That he thinks proves that he is (because, like you say, there must be something doing the thinking), but that he is does not prove that he thinks. Plenty of things exist and (to all appearances) don't think.

Here, I have to agree with Rade, as I have said in the past. First is "I am." Without that nothing else is or can be. "I think" is a corollary of I am. "I think" cannot exist unless one assumes as given, true, axiomatic, that "I am." is true. This, of course, is true only if we take his statement at face value, out of context of his paper. With in the fabric of his story, his reasoning to reach that conclusion, it is valid.

The same can be said for God's pronouncement "I am." Not that God's name is "I am." but that, that was all that needed to be, and could be said, because that said it all.

 

[max1975]

I'm not about to argue that Descartes' formulation is superior to God's; just that it is logical (if not terribly informative), and that if you flip it around to "I am, thus, I think" as Rade suggested, it is (apparently) false, because there are many things that exist (apparently) without thinking.

 

[Royce]

I'm not about to argue that Descartes' formulation is superior to God's; just that it is logical (if not terribly informative), and that if you flip it around to "I am, thus, I think" as Rade suggested, it is (apparently) false, because there are many things that exist (apparently) without thinking.

It has long been my opinion that Descartes nailed it. It is the only logical starting point. First, I exist. I know that I exist because I think. However, if we analyze the statements logically both begin with "I". This is the same as saying, I am, he who thinks; therefore, I am. I am; therefore I am. This is an identity or boringly redundant. True there is that which exists and does not think. None of those things can say "I am". Nor do they know or question their existence. God or Descartes, you or me, all that is required or all that can be said in the very beginning is; "I am." Given that, the rest follows logically and reasonably.

 

[max1975]

It's been a long ime since I read Descartes. Did he note the similarity between his statement and God's? Or did he not write that down because it sounds kinda blasphemous?

 

[Royce]

It's been a long ime since I read Descartes. Did he note the similarity between his statement and God's? Or did he not write that down because it sounds kinda blasphemous?

Not that I know of. His famous statement came from his Dialogs, #1, I think.
Thanks to Mentat who gave us a link to them some time back,(look in the archives here or do a google search.) I was able to read them again. Essentially he was arguing with a demon who was trying to convince him, Descartes, that he did not exist and was just a figment of his, the Demon's imagination. Descartes proved to himself that he existed because he thought; "Cognito; ergo, sum." I think, therefore, I am.

As I said, within the context of his dialog his reasoning was impeccable; however, if we take his statement out of context, while they do stand alone, it can be said that the reverse is more true. "I am" says it all and must be said first; ergo, "I am, therefore I think." Only a being can say that. While a rock exists it is not a being and not aware of its existence or being. It can never say, "I am."

As you said earlier you are a subject not an object. I choose to take that both ways. You, your "Me-ness", is subjective not objective. You are also a subject upon which volumes could be written, your entire history and your me-ness. All of which is summed up by saying; "I am." as we are the sum total of our experience and existence and our me-ness. (I really like that term that you coined. It does kind of say a lot if not it all.)

Let me add my welcome to PF's too. I enjoyed your posts and your humor.

 

[W A Dunkley]

This is an assertion; I am not convinced. I see contradictory relationships all the time. I believe there is a non-contradictory solution to most if not all problems, but this is a belief and is not proven by evidence.

It is proven by the imitable truth that all A is A! On the one hand you seem to claim that you acknowledge that A is A and on the other hand claim that only an unproven "belief" stands in the way of one being stuck with A is not A. This is absurd. One cannot even claim such a thing as "evidence" without first acknowledging implicitly or explicitly that A is A. Even finding non-contradictory solutions to all problems (which is unrealistic) would not extrinsically prove the axiom nor even prove that a non-contradictory solution is better that a contradictory one. Recognition of the axiom and what it asserts and proves is the beginning of knowledge, not its end.

I thought it a fair reading of your statement.

To equate the acknowledgment of the intrinsic nature of self evidence (e.g., the self-evidence of a pain in ones head) and necessary truth (e.g., a pencil is a pencil) as non-rational is a horrendous assumption.

Proof is that which demonstrates that what one is proving is true. Absolute proof is that which proves that what one is proving must be true, that any alternative is impossible. there may be relatively little that can be proven to this degree, but the axiom is absolute intrinsic proof of the existence of self-sameness and this is most certainly a rational proof. If this cannot be acknowledged then we are indeed at an impasse.

No, it doesn't. It asserts the existence of identity. "Identity" is the abstraction that is required for your system of reason to function--and your system of reason is only as good as its foundation. Which means the abstraction must match observation. Which is why when you repeatedly assert that "It doesn't matter what A is," I repeatedly fail to see any meaning in your argument. In real life, identity is not such a simple thing--most often it is an arbitrarily drawn line. In fact, to identify anything is to invent an abstraction and make an assertion.

Identity is the existent thing, asserted by the axiom; self-sameness is something that exists. It is not and abstract idea. We comprehend identity as an abstract idea, but that idea refers to something that exist and would exists if the idea and the axiom had never been formulated.

Concepts do not presume nor require omniscience. The concept of a pencil refers to a mentally unified group of things (many unknown) united by a definition. Such concepts live or die by there correspondence with evidence. Such evidence, nonetheless, can only be evaluated by acknowledging that A is A, that it is a non contradictory world. Yes! "identity is required for" any "system of reason to function" and no other "foundation" is possible.

My philosophy maintains that the existence of the pencil or any other given totality of things is all which constitute what ever things our concepts refer. The identity of the pencil, however, is that basic part that all things share, the existent thing asserted and PROVEN by the axiom! This radical concept of identity is where my philosophy diverges from all others. From this concept philosophy's earliest and deepest question can be answered. But if this concept of identity is not grasped, my philosophy will indeed sound like gibberish.

I'll take one more stab at clarity.

I hold with the most supreme confidence that the philosophy I present is clear and provable!

 

[Johann]

I hold with the most supreme confidence that the philosophy I present is clear and provable!

I think it's unclear and can be demonstrated not to be universal:

\frac{x}{0} = \frac{x}{0}

There goes your identity principle down the drain...

 

[max1975]

My philosophy maintains that the existence of the pencil or any other given totality of things is all which constitute what ever things our concepts refer. The identity of the pencil, however, is that basic part that all things share, the existent thing asserted and PROVEN by the axiom! This radical concept of identity is where my philosophy diverges from all others. From this concept philosophy's earliest and deepest question can be answered.

Maybe if you were to start answering those, I would begin to see the utility of your radical concept.

But if this concept of identity is not grasped, my philosophy will indeed sound like gibberish.

Let's not be harsh. To the extent that it sounds like gibberish, it does so because it is a philosophy that addresses the foundations of reason, and thus exists at the limits of reason, and you're trying to explain it to someone who does not accept reason as the final authority. Reason hits a point where it runs in circles. That's just the way it is. Your formulation "A is A" is circular, and you're saying "Just accept it!" But circles aren't good enough for me.

Don't be too discouraged. If I were to explain to you my theory of everything, it would be gibberish too. Complete gibberish. Less circular, but very very curvy, with the occasional straight line, much recursion, and more than a few hyperbolics, and in all ways gibberish. Perhaps the very epitome of gibberish.

I hold with the most supreme confidence that the philosophy I present is clear and provable!

Best of luck.

 

[Les Sleeth]

To the extent that it sounds like gibberish, it does so because it is a philosophy that addresses the foundations of reason, and thus exists at the limits of reason, and you're trying to explain it to someone who does not accept reason as the final authority. Reason hits a point where it runs in circles. That's just the way it is. Your formulation "A is A" is circular, and you're saying "Just accept it!" But circles aren't good enough for me.

Well said. As you imply, if we are going to limit knowing to rationality, it is difficult dispute A is A since that is a tautology. Dunkley's philosophy seems little more than an attempt to convert every question into a tautology because of how resistant it is to being disputed. If winning, or at least not losing, debates is what one wants, then I suppose the argument is effective. But I don't see how it contributes much to "philosophy's earliest and deepest questions."

Don't be too discouraged. If I were to explain to you my theory of everything, it would be gibberish too. Complete gibberish. Less circular, but very very curvy, with the occasional straight line, much recursion, and more than a few hyperbolics, and in all ways gibberish. Perhaps the very epitome of gibberish.

It will probably slip out as time goes by. You can run but you can't hide.

 

[Rade]

If this is the case then it is a false not all inclusive statements. We can perceive an airplane yet know nothing about airplanes, what they are or what they do or how they do it. Perception is not the gaining of knowledge or understanding.

It is of course crazy for me to speak for Ayn Rand (one only need read her numerous books, papers, books about her philosophy, etc. to understand what exactly she is saying). Here for example, what "I" said that "she said" is taken out of context. Rand does not hold that perception is a pure route to knowledge, only that it is the starting point of the process--it is the automatic function of consciousness. Rand holds that there is a second step in the process, called concept formation, but this is NOT automatic. Thus, knowledge for Rand is a two step process- first perception (automatic), then concept formation (volitional). Thus, as you state correctly, we can perceive an airplane yet know nothing about an airplane, however, clearly the act of perception has then led to our formation of the "concept airplane" that we "know" we have preceived.

 

[Rade]

I think it's unclear and can be demonstrated not to be universal:

\frac{x}{0} = \frac{x}{0}

There goes your identity principle down the drain...

With all respect, I disagree with this argument. When Rand states that A = A, she is not saying that "A" must be a real object, it may well be an imaginary object (such as your example), or not an object at all, but an action. When Rand states that A = A she is saying that "A" has a specific nature, that it is "something", not just "anything", and that it is not a "no-thing". Your argument fails because you equate a "non-sense" number with a "no-thing" number, (that is, the human mind can invent all types of non-sense numbers), but clearly [x/0] is a "thing" with two parts, it does have an "identity" and thus the Law of Identity (A=A) can be applied to it.

Also, I think we make too much of the Law of Identity on this thread, it is a Law, like the Law of Gravity, and clearly we have no skepticism that Law of Gravity is true, why then Law of Identity ? Neither do we make too much of Law of Gravity--it does not explain why my dog barks--but when we do need it we use it. For me it is the same with Law of Identity--when we need it to understand the question "what is real", we use it. What Rand is saying I suppose, is if you do not use it to answer that question, then you hold a false philosophy--thus its great significance. Either we need it, or we do not. Are there self-evident philosophies that people follow that reject Law of Identity ?

To build an omelet you need eggs, to build a philosophy of metaphysics, you need Law of Identity--this is all Rand is saying, and it seems self-evident to me, thus an axiom of all non-contradictory philosophic thinking.

 

[Rade]

Objectivism is not an object but a thought, an idea, a philosophy that has no objective reality and cannot ever be perceived by our senses, thus, according to her, can never be known since it cannot be perceived. This is the common flaw in all materialistic, physicalistic and objectivistic philosophies.

I would think that for Rand, Objectivism is a "concept", and thus falls into her very complex "theory of concepts", which to my understanding is unlike any other such theory of concepts--it is unique to Objectivism, thus your comment about "flaw" does not hold to Rand's philosophy, as I will attempt to explain.

Now Rand defines "concept" as "classifications of observed existents according to their relationships to other observed existents". It is a "single mental unit". Thus, it is clear that for Rand, Objectivism is a concept (a way of thinking classified from other ways of thinking) that has a clear reality that she created by the process of concept formation. It is a "single mental unit"--given by her the "definition" = Objectivism. And, it has an objective reality because it was created from the perception of real objects from her senses, which she then differentiated and integrated (similar to mathematical concept of calculus) to form her concept called Objectivism. All of this was done within a very specific unit in her brain that has a specific identity, what is called "consciousness".

Now, of course, as you state, Objectivism philosophy as a concept cannot be "perceived by the senses", since by definition, the senses can only perceive that which is external to consciousness. Objectivism, because it is a concept created by consciousness, can only be "known" by the self via a process of introspection where Objectivism as a "single mental unit" is grasped as a way of thinking against the context provided by the evidence of the senses.

[EDIT] Of course, I can perceive Rand's concept called "Objectivisim" by reading the words she wrote about it--when I say above it cannot be perceived by senses, I refer to Ms. Rand's senses, not mine [END EDIT]

So, your statement that Rand's philosophy cannot be known because it cannot be perceived is on the one hand correct, but on the other hand it is false because knowledge is not limited to perception, but also involves concept formation, which can be known via a volitional introspective action of consciousness. In short, if what you hold is in fact true, then you hold that Rand in fact did not "know" that the philosophy she created existed --which I find difficult if not impossible to accept is the position that she would hold.

 

[Canute]

What if I hold first as "the most certain kind of axiom" that either (1) existence exists or (2) existence does not exist, and that I hold this as self-evident knowledge. I do not see why this cannot be the most certain kind of axiom that is self-evident to me.

I'm not sure what this means. 'Existence' is an abstract concept, so I don't know how it can be said to exist. Do you mean the concept of existence exists? Or do you mean that something exists?

Next, suppose I reject # (2) for the simple reason that if existence does not exist then I would not be writing these words. Now, if I hold as self-evident that existence-exists (note I say nothing about anyone existent), I must then reject Descarte, because his argument would then be backward, and the correct form should be : I am (e.g. exist), thus, I think. This is clearly self-evident to me because it is illogical for me to "think", before there is first some "thing" that can "think", which must then be the "I am" of "me".

From this I take it you meant 'something exists' by the phrase 'existence exists'. It's certainly true that this appears to be self-evident. But truths cannot be self-evident just because they are not illogical. Deciding whether a proposition is 'logical' is a job for reasoning, and no amount of reasoning can make a truth self-evident. What made Descartes' axiom self-evident was the fact that its truth did not depend on the clarity or rigour of his reasoning, it depended just on the fact that he was aware of himself reasoning. 'Cogito' is a meta-logical truth, and all self-evident truths are meta-logical in this way. To put it another way, self-evident truths cannot be falsified by reason. If a proposition can be falsified by reason then it cannot be self-evidently true. (Of course, outside philsophy we use the term 'self-evident' more loosely).

To confuse matters some more it's worth bearing in mind that in general meditators, people who delve a little deeper than Descartes, conclude that "I" does not ultimately exist, nor the thoughts from which the "I" is constructed. To a skilled Buddhist for instance (which I am not!) it is, rather confusingly, self-evident that the self is an epiphenomenon, a conceptual construct, and that what Max1975 says about the distinctness of forms is true, that all such distinctions between forms are ultimately conceptual. When we look for boundaries between things we cannot find them, and QM makes it clear that there are none. As Einstein said, we have first to construct forms within ourselves before we can find them in things. When we look for the essence of distinct forms we find there is no such thing. Universals and particulars are not different things in some views.

I also note that when God was asked who he/she was, the answer was "I am", just call me "I am"--in other words, God does not need to think that he/she is to know that he/she is--it is self evident that God first exists (I am), and all else follows from there.

I think he said (allegedly) "I am that I am," which is a more subtle response. But I take your point.

Now, I also find that I don't agree with this second axiom you hold:... if I hold as self-evident that "existence-exists" is the most certain of all axioms in philosophy, then it is also self-evident that solipsism is false. Why ? because solipsism is defined as the thought that nothing exists or is real but the "self" (Webster). But, as shown above, before a "self" can hold any claim to exist, first must come the axiom "existence exists", then each "self" can claim to only know that they exist. If quantum mechanics falsifies anything it is solipsism--QM tells us that the "self" (observer) is not needed for two objects to co-mingle. Only the probability of becoming a self is real.

Here I feel that you're misunderstanding a couple of things. The axiom 'something exists' is perfectly consistent with the truth of solipsism. If it were not then solpsism would be falsifiable. QM does not falsify solpsism, and it could be argued that it lends the idea credibility. But I'm not sure I quite understand what your getting at here.

Now, I find I also do not agree with your third axiom:...What if I hold as self evident knowledge that "nothing is self-evident except for the material of sensory perception".

It may depend on what you mean by "the material of sensory perception" but this seems to be a misuse of the term 'self-evident'. The existence of what we know by sensory perception is precisely what is not self-evident.

Your axiom holds that "sensations" are the self-evident given (reason is much latter derived and has no place here), my axiom holds that "percepts" are the self-evident given.

I'm not sure I proposed any axioms, but no matter. I hope I didn't say that sensations are self-evidently given. It is self-evident that we experience sensations, but not self-evident that the experiencing self truly exists, in a strictly ontological sense. Hence some of the widespread criticism of 'cogito' as an axiom.

This is an important difference because, while sensations may deceive, by definition, perceptions can never deceive because it is self evident to all humans that perceptions must always have "error" or "uncertainty" connected to them. Thus if I have a priori knowledge that perception always comes with error, then I can never be deceived by that which I know has error. Surprised perhaps to experience an error, but never deceived.

If you acknowledge that you may be deceived by your perceptions then clearly what is known self-evidently to you cannot include knowledge of the truth or falsity of your perceptions. This seems to contradict what you said earlier. If you even think that you exist as a discrete 'self,' discrete from other objects that exist, perceiving and conceiving other things that exist, then many people would say that you have been deceived.

According to Rand, "consciousness is the faculty of perceiving that which exists".

According to me that is nonsense. Perceiving is perceiving. Science has not yet shown that what we perceive exists. Rand's definition of consciousness is unique to Rand.

"Awareness is not a passive state, but an active process".

Is there any evidence available to support this conjecture?

But it is not clear to me that Rand holds that consciousness is "caused" by brains". Clearly, she holds that consciousness is located within the brain, but so to is "subconscious", plus many other brain functions (sight, smell, taste, ect.). What is clear is that Rand holds that "consciousness has a specific nature with specific cognitive needs", thus an identity. What is the cause of this identity--I am not sure ?

How can one confirm that consciousness is located anywhere in particular, especially in a 'non-local' universe? Does Rand have access to data not available to the rest of us? How can one decide that "consciousness has a specific nature with specific cognitive needs"? It sounds like a prime case of overactive imagination and lack of intellectual honesty to me.

I feel the best way forward is to ignore Rand. Most other philosophers do, commonly on the grounds that Objectivism, like Christianity, has no coherent metaphysic underlying it. I'd rather deal directly with the issues. Your questions are more rational than Rand's answers.

 

[Johann]

With all respect, I disagree with this argument.

Your comments are appreciated.

When Rand states that A = A, she is not saying that "A" must be a real object, it may well be an imaginary object (such as your example), or not an object at all, but an action. When Rand states that A = A she is saying that "A" has a specific nature, that it is "something", not just "anything", and that it is not a "no-thing".

I thought so, but I take a different meaning out of that. What I meant to show with an assertion that takes the form of the an identity statement and yet cannot be proven true was something people often overlook or fail to understand: no purely abstract principle is universally valid.

More specifically, you can't hold that an assertion like A=A must be absolutely true if you don't know what "A" means. For one thing, if A has the meaning of a finite number divided by zero, then the assertion is neither true nor false but indeterminate.

Your argument fails because you equate a "non-sense" number with a "no-thing" number

That is not what my argument is. What I'm trying to show is that you cannot known if "nonsense" equals "nonsense". In order to apply the law of identity to any concept, first you have to make sure you are not talking nonsense. That is a rather difficult thing to do, and you certainly can't apply the law of identity to such a problem.

clearly [x/0] is a "thing" with two parts, it does have an "identity" and thus the Law of Identity (A=A) can be applied to it.

Only if you take the symbols "x", "/" and "0" to be meaningless. But if you can do that, you can also take "=" as being a meaningless symbol, and the whole thing goes down the drain. It is impossible to say anything that is both meaningful and absolutely true. Fifty years after Godel, people are still searching for something that has been proved not to exist.

Also, I think we make too much of the Law of Identity on this thread, it is a Law, like the Law of Gravity, and clearly we have no skepticism that Law of Gravity is true, why then Law of Identity ?

The law of gravity is not claimed to serve as the foundation for metaphysics. The concept of "law" doesn't have the same meaning in physics as it does in philosophy.

What Rand is saying I suppose, is if you do not use it to answer that question, then you hold a false philosophy--thus its great significance.

And I disagree with that. I think it places unnecessary demands on language and therefore restricts our ability to understand and talk about the world around us. For instance, in chaos theory a statement such as x = x + 1 is perfectly valid. Is chaos theory a false philosophy?

Are there self-evident philosophies that people follow that reject Law of Identity ?

Well, one man's self-evident truth is another man's false philosophy. All forms of mysticism that I know of insist, in one way or another, on the point that any linguistic description of reality is bound to be paradoxical. Surely you can argue that all forms of mysticism are false philosophies, but I doubt you would get mystics to agree with you.

To build an omelet you need eggs, to build a philosophy of metaphysics, you need Law of Identity

Nope. The basic ingredient ot metaphysics is not a set of laws. What plays the role of eggs in the metaphysical omelet are not principles or laws, but language itself. Philosophy is basically molded by the rules of grammar, syntax and semantics. Laws and principles come much later in the game, but people seldom realize that because they take language for granted and seldom think about it.