Does Sundance preon kit match Kovtun-Zee composite neutrino?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the compatibility between the composite neutrino model proposed by Kovtun and Zee and the Sundance preon model developed by Bilson-Thompson. Participants explore the implications of these models within the context of quantum gravity and their potential connections to existing theories of particle physics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants highlight the composite nature of neutrinos as proposed by Kovtun and Zee, suggesting it may align with the Sundance preon model.
  • Others express skepticism about the validity of either model, noting that there is no definitive reason to assume either is correct.
  • A participant mentions that the concept of lepospin introduced by Kovtun and Zee bears resemblance to existing ideas but questions the terminology used.
  • There are references to previous works by other participants that may relate to the discussion, including papers on neutrino mixing and the structure of elementary particles.
  • Some participants inquire about the relationship between these models and quantum gravity spin networks, seeking further opinions on the matter.
  • One participant suggests that the models may require a subgroup to be compatible, indicating uncertainty about their integration.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the compatibility of the models. Multiple competing views are presented, and the discussion remains unresolved regarding their implications and connections.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding the assumptions made about the models and their definitions, as well as unresolved mathematical steps related to their compatibility with quantum gravity.

marcus
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new paper by Kovtun and Zee
http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0604169
idea of composite neutrino

earlier we discussed Sundance Bilson-Thompson topological preon model incorporated into quantum gravity by Lee Smolin
and described in the online Lecture Series Introduction to Quantum Gravity, Lecture #25.

It might be interesting for QG if the Sundance preon model is successful because it fits in naturally with spin networks. So my question is:

this composite neutrino idea of Kovtun and Zee, how well does it compat with the Sundance kit for building all the basic particles from framed braids?
 
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Just curious, probably no reason to suppose that either one is right---but it would be interesting if they happened to compat.

A schematic model of neutrinos
Pavel Kovtun, A. Zee
4 pages

"We show that the observed pattern for neutrino mixing arises naturally if neutrinos are composites of more elementary constituents carrying an SU(2) quantum number we call lepospin."

lepospin sounds vaguely like "liposuction", something I think they like to do a lot in SouthCalifornia---has the right ring for a Santa Barbara Kitpee idea.:smile:

here is the Sundance paper:
http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0503213
A topological model of composite preons
Sundance O.Bilson-Thompson
9 pages, 3 figures

"We present a modification of the preon model proposed independently by Shupe and Harari. A basic dynamics is developed by treating the binding of preons as topological in nature and identifying the substructure of quarks, leptons and gauge bosons with elements of the braid group B_3. Topological considerations and a straightforward set of assumptions lead directly to behaviour consistent with much of the known phenomenology of the Standard Model. The preons of this model may be viewed as composite in nature, and composed of sub-preons, representing exactly two levels of substructure within quarks and leptons."

===============
A. Zee is a great guy and writes entertainingly and has creative ideas but he should know to keep the T in lepto and not erode it down to lepo--it loses crisp and gets like jello. and the Greek meaning is lost.
 
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that is interesting, he should have some correspondence with A. Zee and Kovtun then, should not he?

any idea how this fits in with QG spin networks?
 
marcus said:
...any idea how this fits in with QG spin networks?

Marcus, surely you (and others) know by now what I would say to that. :smile:
I would quite like to hear some other opinions.
 
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Kea said:
Marcus, surely you (and others) know by now what I would say to that. :smile:
.

oops:rolleyes:

actually I don't, but I guess I'm not eager to find out

I would quite like to hear some other opinions.

I hope some are forthcoming!
 
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The following also seems to be relevant. CarlB references an older paper of theirs.

Symmetries and Generalisations of Tri-Bimaximal Neutrino Mixing
P. F. Harrison W. G. Scott
http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph0203209

:smile:
 
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"We show that the observed pattern for neutrino mixing arises naturally if neutrinos are composites of more elementary constituents carrying an SU(2) quantum number we call \mathfrak{LEPOSPIN}."

CarB and the Tri-Bi guys could, I suppose, have discovered this very same quantum number only they made up a different name for it!
 
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marcus said:
that is interesting, he should have some correspondence with A. Zee and Kovtun then, should not he?

CarlB was planning to travel this weekend to the AIP symposium, so perhaps he is not reading the forum. If someone has his private email or phone (the later preferably) it could be worth to alert him of the new preprint (an SMS should be enough?).
 
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they would have to use a subgroup though. not sure if that goes together. but it would be good to try and give the sundance-stuff some attachment to reality. best,

B.
 

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