# Does Sundance preon kit match Kovtun-Zee composite neutrino?

1. Apr 20, 2006

### marcus

new paper by Kovtun and Zee
http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0604169
idea of composite neutrino

earlier we discussed Sundance Bilson-Thompson topological preon model incorporated into quantum gravity by Lee Smolin
and described in the online Lecture Series Introduction to Quantum Gravity, Lecture #25.

It might be interesting for QG if the Sundance preon model is successful because it fits in naturally with spin networks. So my question is:

this composite neutrino idea of Kovtun and Zee, how well does it compat with the Sundance kit for building all the basic particles from framed braids?

2. Apr 20, 2006

### marcus

Just curious, probably no reason to suppose that either one is right---but it would be interesting if they happened to compat.

A schematic model of neutrinos
Pavel Kovtun, A. Zee
4 pages

"We show that the observed pattern for neutrino mixing arises naturally if neutrinos are composites of more elementary constituents carrying an SU(2) quantum number we call lepospin."

lepospin sounds vaguely like "liposuction", something I think they like to do a lot in SouthCalifornia---has the right ring for a Santa Barbara Kitpee idea.

here is the Sundance paper:
http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0503213
A topological model of composite preons
Sundance O.Bilson-Thompson
9 pages, 3 figures

"We present a modification of the preon model proposed independently by Shupe and Harari. A basic dynamics is developed by treating the binding of preons as topological in nature and identifying the substructure of quarks, leptons and gauge bosons with elements of the braid group B_3. Topological considerations and a straightforward set of assumptions lead directly to behaviour consistent with much of the known phenomenology of the Standard Model. The preons of this model may be viewed as composite in nature, and composed of sub-preons, representing exactly two levels of substructure within quarks and leptons."

===============
A. Zee is a great guy and writes entertainingly and has creative ideas but he should know to keep the T in lepto and not erode it down to lepo--it loses crisp and gets like jello. and the Greek meaning is lost.

Last edited: Apr 20, 2006
3. Apr 20, 2006

### Kea

Marcus

CarlB has already put out a paper http://brannenworks.com/MASSES.pdf on neutrinos, along with

on the long thread

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=113185&page=6

Cheers
Kea

Last edited: Apr 20, 2006
4. Apr 20, 2006

### marcus

that is interesting, he should have some correspondence with A. Zee and Kovtun then, should not he?

any idea how this fits in with QG spin networks?

5. Apr 20, 2006

### Kea

Marcus, surely you (and others) know by now what I would say to that.
I would quite like to hear some other opinions.

Last edited: Apr 20, 2006
6. Apr 20, 2006

### marcus

oops:uhh:

actually I don't, but I guess I'm not eager to find out

I hope some are forthcoming!

Last edited: Apr 20, 2006
7. Apr 20, 2006

### Kea

The following also seems to be relevant. CarlB references an older paper of theirs.

Symmetries and Generalisations of Tri-Bimaximal Neutrino Mixing
P. F. Harrison W. G. Scott
http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph0203209

8. Apr 20, 2006

### marcus

"We show that the observed pattern for neutrino mixing arises naturally if neutrinos are composites of more elementary constituents carrying an SU(2) quantum number we call $$\mathfrak{LEPOSPIN}$$."

CarB and the Tri-Bi guys could, I suppose, have discovered this very same quantum number only they made up a different name for it!

Last edited: Apr 20, 2006
9. Apr 21, 2006

### arivero

CarlB was planning to travel this weekend to the AIP symposium, so perhaps he is not reading the forum. If someone has his private email or phone (the later preferably) it could be worth to alert him of the new preprint (an SMS should be enough?).

10. Apr 21, 2006

### hossi

they would have to use a subgroup though. not sure if that goes together. but it would be good to try and give the sundance-stuff some attachment to reality. best,

B.

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