Does that mean Perfection is Impossible?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of perfection and its relationship to impossibility, exploring whether perfection can be considered achievable or if it is inherently unattainable. Participants engage with paradoxes, definitions, and the implications of logical statements, with a focus on both theoretical and practical interpretations.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that the statement "Nothing is Impossible" contradicts the notion of perfection being unattainable, suggesting a paradox.
  • Others argue that the definitions of "nothing," "impossible," and "perfection" are ambiguous and require clarification for meaningful discussion.
  • A participant defines perfection as a status that is "higher than anyone else, but unreachable," leading to examples from sports to illustrate differing interpretations of perfection.
  • Some participants challenge the idea that a perfect score must be unachievable, citing examples like a perfect score in bowling as achievable.
  • There are discussions about the implications of accepting that "nothing is impossible," with some questioning the validity of such a statement.
  • Several participants introduce additional paradoxes, such as the relationship between omniscience and the ability to change the future, and the paradox of self-referential statements.
  • One participant humorously references Kim Jong Il's supposed golfing prowess to illustrate the absurdity of achieving perfection in golf.
  • Another participant critiques the notion of a snake eating itself as a paradox, suggesting it is better described as cannibalism rather than a true paradox.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the definitions and implications of perfection and impossibility, with no consensus reached on whether perfection is achievable or if the statements presented form a true paradox.

Contextual Notes

Discussions reveal limitations in definitions and assumptions regarding perfection and impossibility, with various interpretations leading to differing conclusions about the nature of paradoxes.

DR_henegar
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I think this is a Paradox, but I thought of it and I'm not sure. Can anyone confirm. The paradox is as follows:
If it is said Nothing is Impossible, but you cannot be perfect, does that mean Perfection is Impossible?
 
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The statements may be logically paradoxical, but it has nothing to do with reality.

i.e. you could prove that the construction of the statements alone contradict each other (if I is an empty set, yet P is in I, then P is paradoxical.), but so what? The meaning of the words in your statements are ambiguous. Define "nothing", define "impossible", define "perfection".

Question: are you interested in discussing pure logic, or are you interested in the applications of logic?
 


It depends on how you define perfection. If you define perfect as the highest score possible in a video game, then if someone achieves that score, they achieved perfection.
 


I like Applications of Logic. And Perfection is defined as this in my perspective: "A status that is higher than anyone else, but unreachable." And I had another related paradox...or maybe not..."Nothing is Impossible" and then say "It is Impossible to do nothing"
 


DR_henegar said:
And Perfection is defined as this in my perspective: "A status that is higher than anyone else, but unreachable."
Hm. According to your definition:

A "perfect" score in golf is 54. It's the best ever achieved (regardless of the fact that, in theory, it is possible to achieve an 18).
http://golf.about.com/od/faqs/f/lowestscore.htm


Contrarily, a 300 in bowling (though it is impossible to do better, even in theory) is not a perfect score because it is achievable.
 


DaveC426913 said:
Hm. According to your definition:

A "perfect" score in golf is 54. It's the best ever achieved (regardless of the fact that, in theory, it is possible to achieve an 18).
http://golf.about.com/od/faqs/f/lowestscore.htm


Contrarily, a 300 in bowling (though it is impossible to do better, even in theory) is not a perfect score because it is achievable.

You may have my idea, but wrong point...the last two words are the key words of my definition.
 


Does it bother you that the platonic ideal of every ellipse whose minor and major axes differ by less than the size of an atom could be considered a perfect sphere under that definition?

All these things are only paradoxes if you accept that nothing is impossible, which is unlikely
 


DR_henegar said:
You may have my idea, but wrong point...the last two words are the key words of my definition.

I was specifically addressing your last two words.

One of your criteria of perfection is that "it is unachievable". Thus, according to you, a 300 score in bowling is not a perfect score, since violates your criterion.
 


DR_henegar said:
You may have my idea, but wrong point...the last two words are the key words of my definition.

But 300 is the perfect score in bowling. That is perfection so far as that game goes. The goal is completely achievable.

As DaveC pointed out, the lowest score in golf is 18 - perfection, but the odds of you getting that are extremely slim and as such can be considered unachievable (that is, unless you're kim jong il and his family).
 
  • #10


jarednjames said:
As DaveC pointed out, the lowest score in golf is 18 - perfection, but the odds of you getting that are extremely slim and as such can be considered unachievable (that is, unless you're kim jong il and his family).

My argument was two-pronged, refuting each of his criteria independently:

1] A state that is unachievable. It is quite obvious that, in some cases, perfection is quite achievable (the bowling example).

2] A state that is merely better than everyone else. (the golfing example - According to his definition, any golf score less than 54 is "perfect" (since it is "better than anyone else")).
 
  • #11


jarednjames said:
But 300 is the perfect score in bowling. That is perfection so far as that game goes. The goal is completely achievable.

As DaveC pointed out, the lowest score in golf is 18 - perfection, but the odds of you getting that are extremely slim and as such can be considered unachievable (that is, unless you're kim jong il and his family).

What does Kim Jong Il have to do with this..and what do you mean about him?
 
  • #13


I love paradoxes. How about this one. If you can see the future, then you can't change it. For it you changed it, then what you saw was wrong. So you can't be both omnipotent and omniscient. How cool is that?
 
  • #14


Jimmy Snyder said:
I love paradoxes. How about this one. If you can see the future, then you can't change it. For it you changed it, then what you saw was wrong. So you can't be both omnipotent and omniscient. How cool is that?

If you're omniscient, then P=NP. But that makes no sense
 
  • #15


Office_Shredder said:
If you're omniscient, then P=NP.
How so?
 
  • #16


Knowing everything is a polynomial time algorithm to solving the traveling salesman problem
 
  • #17


What about the simple paradox "This sentence is not true"? It apparently has the proper syntax for a genuine proposition, but it cannot be true nor false.
 
  • #18


Office_Shredder said:
Knowing everything is a polynomial time algorithm to solving the traveling salesman problem
Sweet.
 
  • #19


Nothing is impossible, it is impossible to do nothing. ...Wait what?
 
  • #20


A snake eating a snake is a paradox. I've actually seen it happen too.
 
  • #21


leroyjenkens said:
A snake eating a snake is a paradox. I've actually seen it happen too.
Ahem. How is a snake...eating a snake...a paradox. It's called Cannibalism...and, IMHO, Is not Paradoxic at all.
 
  • #22


DR_henegar said:
I think this is a Paradox, but I thought of it and I'm not sure. Can anyone confirm. The paradox is as follows:
If it is said Nothing is Impossible, but you cannot be perfect, does that mean Perfection is Impossible?

That's not a paradox. It's just two contradictory statements. By the same token, if I said leprechauns don't exist but I had lunch with Lucky the other day, it wouldn't be a paradox. One of the statements would simply be untrue. A paradox requires that true statements contradict each other. It's clearly not true that nothing is impossible. Plenty of things are impossible.
 
  • #23


loseyourname said:
That's not a paradox. It's just two contradictory statements. By the same token, if I said leprechauns don't exist but I had lunch with Lucky the other day, it wouldn't be a paradox. One of the statements would simply be untrue. A paradox requires that true statements contradict each other. It's clearly not true that nothing is impossible. Plenty of things are impossible.

Well said.
 
  • #24


DR_henegar said:
Ahem. How is a snake...eating a snake...a paradox. It's called Cannibalism...and, IMHO, Is not Paradoxic at all.

It should be a snake eating itself. It's actually known as Ouroboros.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros

Coincidently:

imagesvicious20circle.jpg
 
  • #25
  • #26


DaveC426913 said:
Many a dog are very envious...

:smile:
 
  • #27


jarednjames said:
It should be a snake eating itself. It's actually known as Ouroboros.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros

Coincidently:

imagesvicious20circle.jpg

What I should have said was two snakes eating each other is a paradox. What would happen if they both finished eating at the same time? Nobody knows.

In regards to your picture, do snakes really do that? Or did someone shove his tail in his mouth just for the picture?
 
  • #28


leroyjenkens said:
What I should have said was two snakes eating each other is a paradox. What would happen if they both finished eating at the same time? Nobody knows.

Even if it were so that nobody knows the outcome of that absurd situation, it's still no paradox.
 
  • #29


leroyjenkens said:
What I should have said was two snakes eating each other is a paradox. What would happen if they both finished eating at the same time? Nobody knows.

Two pieces of snake?
In regards to your picture, do snakes really do that? Or did someone shove his tail in his mouth just for the picture?

Not a clue. Googled it.
 

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