Does the Universe Behave Logically or Illogically?

[Preator Fenix]

Mentat we seem to cross paths again. You are a good thinker.

I have actually given my response to a question of this nature in another post. Here is my answer.

__________

(logic, wrong or right, because to think IS to use logic. To think does not imply that YOU thought about it.) logic is not a THING,...logic is an inherant property of the universe which is taken advantage of by nature ( in humans in particular) to futher biological surviaval (but it is not the only property and so can't be used to handle ALL situations. --therefore the universe in some case is irrational, and uncertatain. As for humans there is no such thing as rational human thought without the use of logic!)

__________

Logic is an imprtant ( for us ) proprety of the universe, but we can hardly expect that ALL of reality will fall under its rein. I am am sure that there are many instance where the universe resolves itself into an irrational mess. Logic is yes an imprtant tool, but it by no means is the only tool. And for those who know Quantum Mechanics will agree that what is logical is not nessacrrily what is right.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Hurkyl
I'm not sure why intuition is a paradox. It's pretty clear that the thought processes of mankind are driven primarily by intuition... even in the sciences. "Rigor" is simply a measure of how little a proof depends on intuition.

Even in formal logic, intuition plays a part. For obvious reasons one cannot be 100% sure that any proof is correct; one must rely on their intuition to some extent when accepting a proof, no matter how detailed and careful the proof is. And, of course, any logical theory must start with some axioms that are simply accepted true without proof; a.k.a. things which our intuition leads us to accept as true. And we must even intuit which formal logic to accept; for example, should we accept the usual logic, or should we reject the law of the excluded middle?

And it's fairly clear that formal logic is heavily based on the intuitive language structures that mankind has developed; it's meant to model intuitive things like "and", "or", "if", "true", and "false".

The problem with intuition is that my intuition may conflict with your intuition. That's why we have logic; if we can agree on a set of rules from which we can prove things, it reduces the likelihood of a conflict.

But is not this last observation an intuitive one?

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Preator Fenix
Mentat we seem to cross paths again. You are a good thinker.

Thanks.

(logic, wrong or right, because to think IS to use logic. To think does not imply that YOU thought about it.) logic is not a THING,...logic is an inherant property of the universe which is taken advantage of by nature ( in humans in particular) to futher biological surviaval (but it is not the only property and so can't be used to handle ALL situations. --therefore the universe in some case is irrational, and uncertatain. As for humans there is no such thing as rational human thought without the use of logic!)

Well, I'm not sure about that last point (though I agree with most of the rest of it). You see, if I say "purple cows are plotting against me", there is no logic to my statement - since logic is the use of reasoning systems, and I haven't reasoned here, at all.

 

[Maverick]

Logic by its very nature is nothing more than what is possible. Because we know or assume this universe to be possible, as we all exist in it and experience the very possibilities, which do happen, we must know that the universe is inherently logical. No part of the universe is illogical, NOT because it all must make sense, but because it all is possible, as it happens. It’s own existence defines its possibility and thus makes it logical. There may be a great deal of the universe that seems quite illogical, but this is merely either our inability to process such complex logical thought, or our lack of sufficient data to formulate an accurate view. When things happen that don’t seem right or make no sense, it hardly means that they are illogicall, it merely means that we do not understand them. I believe the word “logic” is too often used synonymously with “makes sense.” You see, when I say: “All cows are red” and then I say: “I have a cow” I know by logic, that my cow is red. To say that all cows are red and then say I have a cow that is not red is impossible. That is what logic is.

Now! I believe the initiator of this thread made an interesting suggestion that a universe may not run logically. My response to such an idea is that it could indeed be so. But! We know that THIS universe (as it is possible) is entirely logical. There may however be an infinite number of other universes, which run illogically, but are therefore impossible. Where are they? They are impossible.

I think the question posed from this information is how and if we know what is possible. Of course that is another conversation entirely.

 

[Mentat]

Welcome to the PFs, Maverick!

Originally posted by Maverick
Logic by its very nature is nothing more than what is possible.

Actually, logic can be used to make the distinction between the possible and the impossible (much like you did in the statement (quoted)). Thus it doesn't just deal with things that are possible.

Because we know or assume this universe to be possible, as we all exist in it and experience the very possibilities, which do happen, we must know that the universe is inherently logical. No part of the universe is illogical, NOT because it all must make sense, but because it all is possible, as it happens.

So, because something is possible, it's logical? Then how would one make the distinction between things that are possible and impossible (if not through the use of logic (which only deals with possible things - according to you))?

Now! I believe the initiator of this thread made an interesting suggestion that a universe may not run logically. My response to such an idea is that it could indeed be so. But! We know that THIS universe (as it is possible) is entirely logical. There may however be an infinite number of other universes, which run illogically, but are therefore impossible. Where are they? They are impossible.

Well, actually, they either exist or they don't - and if they are impossible, then they can't exist (thus there is no "they" to speak of).

 

[JetBlckNewYr03]

All sugar crystals have their own specific shapes, and not one is exactly like any other. So a pound of sugar is not exactly equal to a pound of sugar. Never.

What are you talking about? A pound of sugar is always equal to a pound of sugar despite its structure, because we know a pound is always consistently the same mass as another pound.

 

[Zantra]

Mentat you have an inquisitive mind, which is of course a good thing.
I think you would benefit from doing some reading on Chaos theory. I'm not well versed in even the basics of it, but I know that it closely pertains to what you're alluding to. Basically finding logic in illogic. Finding logical patterns in things that are without logic, such as weather patterns. Maybe someone with a bit more knowledge of Chaos fundamentals could provide some input?

EDIT: here's some basic info on Chaos theory:
http://www.wfu.edu/~petrejh4/chaosind.htm

Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.
Albert Einstein

And of course my favorite:

Only 2 things are infinite: the universive and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the former."
Big Al