Does this derivative have a name?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the notation and naming conventions for derivatives of a function F(x,s,t) where x is dependent on two parameters, s and t. Participants explore the implications of applying the chain rule in multiple variables and the appropriate expressions for total derivatives in this context.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents the total derivative of F(x,s,t) and asks for conventional names and notation for specific derivative expressions.
  • Another participant suggests that the quantities can be described as dF/ds and dF/dt without issue, implying a straightforward application of the chain rule.
  • A different participant challenges this view, arguing that the expressions derived from the total differential do not align with the suggested names and proposes defining a new function G(s,t) to clarify the notation.
  • One participant expresses agreement with the alternative approach of defining G(s,t) as a careful method for handling the derivatives in their own notes.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

There is no consensus on the appropriate naming convention for the derivatives discussed. Some participants support the idea of using dF/ds and dF/dt, while others argue against this and propose a different approach with the function G(s,t).

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the complexity of notation in multivariable calculus and the potential for ambiguity in derivative expressions, particularly when multiple variables are involved.

pellman
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Given a function F(x,t) where x is a function of t, we write the total derivative as

[tex]\frac{dF}{dt}=\frac{\partial F}{\partial x}\frac{dx}{dt}+\frac{\partial F}{\partial t}[/tex]

Now what if we have two parameters, F(x,s,t) where x is a function of both s and t. What do we call the following quantities and is there a conventional notation for them?

[tex]\frac{\partial F}{\partial x}\frac{dx}{ds}+\frac{\partial F}{\partial s}[/tex]
[tex]\frac{\partial F}{\partial x}\frac{dx}{dt}+\frac{\partial F}{\partial t}[/tex]
 
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The total derivative is really just the chain rule in multiple variables. With this in mind your two quantities could be described as [itex]\frac{d F}{ds}[/itex] and [itex]\frac{dF}{dt}[/itex] and nobody would flinch
 
I like that answer. Thanks!
 
Office_Shredder said:
The total derivative is really just the chain rule in multiple variables. With this in mind your two quantities could be described as [itex]\frac{d F}{ds}[/itex] and [itex]\frac{dF}{dt}[/itex] and nobody would flinch
Well, consider me a flincher. Let me lend some perspective from the traditional notions of differentials, which I think is often a useful way to think about things.

Applying the chain rule, the total differential of F is given by [itex]dF=\frac{\partial F}{\partial s}ds+\frac{\partial F}{\partial t}dt+\frac{\partial F}{\partial x}dx=\frac{\partial F}{\partial s}ds+\frac{\partial F}{\partial t}dt+\frac{\partial F}{\partial x}\left(\frac{\partial x}{\partial s}ds+\frac{\partial x}{\partial t}dt\right)=\left(\frac{\partial F}{\partial s}+\frac{\partial F}{\partial x}\frac{\partial x}{\partial s}\right)ds+\left(\frac{\partial F}{\partial t}+\frac{\partial F}{\partial x}\frac{\partial x}{\partial t}\right)dt[/itex]. So you can see that [itex]\frac{dF}{ds}[/itex] and [itex]\frac{dF}{dt}[/itex] would not be the right name for these two parenthetical expressions. So what would you call them? To avoid abuse of notation, let me define a function G(s,t)=F(s,t,x(s,t)). In other words, we're just not including x as a variable anymore. In that case, we have [itex]dF=dG=\frac{\partial G}{\partial s}ds+\frac{\partial G}{\partial t}dt[/itex]. So we can call the two expressions [itex]\frac{\partial G}{\partial s}[/itex] and [itex]\frac{\partial G}{\partial t}[/itex].
 
lugita15 said:
define a function G(s,t)=F(s,t,x(s,t)).

Thanks. This is precisely how I usually deal with it my own notes when I want to be careful.
 
Last edited:

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