Doing a PhD in the US vs the UK

[BiggsHoson]

I'm an American, but I did my BSc in the UK and am currently doing an MSc in the UK. I am looking at PhD programs in both countries, but I'm worried that a PhD done in the UK won't be as well regarded in the US due to its shorter length.

Are British PhDs really seen as not as valuable in the US? And is it worth taking longer to complete a PhD to do it in the US?

 

[Vanadium 50]

I'm worried that a PhD done in the UK won't be as well regarded in the US due to its shorter length.

You are right to worry.

 

[CrysPhys]

I'm an American, but I did my BSc in the UK and am currently doing an MSc in the UK. I am looking at PhD programs in both countries, but I'm worried that a PhD done in the UK won't be as well regarded in the US due to its shorter length.

Are British PhDs really seen as not as valuable in the US? And is it worth taking longer to complete a PhD to do it in the US?

<<Emphasis added>> Just make sure you're doing a proper comparison. In the US, you typically start a PhD physics program upon completion of a bachelor's, not a master's. In the UK, from what UK colleagues have posted, you typically start a PhD physics program upon completion of a master's; though there has been mention of some PhD physics programs that you start upon completion of a bachelor's.

 

[CrysPhys]

OP: Another issue that might have bearing on your question: What type of career are you planning to pursue after your PhD?

 

[BiggsHoson]

OP: Another issue that might have bearing on your question: What type of career are you planning to pursue after your PhD?

My interest is in phenomenological physics, so I have been considering a research career at places like FermiLab (I especially like neutrinos so maybe DUNE). I don't think I could make it in academia, but if it ends up being an option for me I would consider it.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Just make sure you're doing a proper comparison

Oh, it's real. Typically a UK PhD has both less coursework and less research experience. It used to be almost half, but the gap has narrowed. And it definitely put UK PhDs at a disadvantage for postdocs. "Can you do XXX?" "Dummo...but I'll try."

 

[ohwilleke]

A U.K. PhD is going to satisfy "threshold requirements" that require, for example, a PhD to be considered for a position, even for a U.S. employer.

The hiring process in physics for PhDs is more individualized than it is in applications for graduate programs, and more still than applications for undergraduate programs and entry level jobs that don't require a PhD. Connections through your dissertation advisor, the match between your exact research subspecialty and the needs of the prospective employer, the mix of the current employees from Europe v. not, and the reputation of your institution, would all matter.

As an analogy, my son who graduated with degree in computer science a couple of years ago was recently hired for a job because he'd done work as a student in research led by a couple of his professors that was in the exact sub-sub-field of AI that his future employer was looking for (and the professors he worked for were known to the people hiring him). This was at least as important as any other factor.

It sounds like your immediate post-graduation goal would be to find work as a post-doc at a major research collaboration.

One way to evaluate empirically what matters would be to look at the biographies of post-docs at some of the major physics research collaborations (there honestly aren't all that many, a dozen or so maybe, and almost all have webpages for each of their post-docs) and see what educational backgrounds they had.

Consider emailing or calling some post-docs who got their PhDs at institutions you are considering in the U.K. to ask them what they think about the issue. Post-docs are not bombarded with these kinds of calls and emails. It's a pretty lonely life for the most part and usually the press and other big shots want to talk with the leaders of the collaboration and not the post-docs. They will usually be unreasonably generous in providing you with feedback. And, they have no incentive to be anything but completely honest with you, since you have no power of them and won't really be in competition with them for the same entry level jobs by the time you finish a PhD.

U.S. PhDs in STEM at top schools are still probably the most highly regarded (with a very large percentage of students coming from abroad to study in these programs), but there are plenty of other reputable PhD programs whose graduates do get hired as post-docs.

In research, as opposed to a tenure track faculty position, the employer will be more concerned about your personal "hard" technical skills than about "softer" factors like the reputation of the school and program you attended. From this perspective, the question is, in part, do you think you personally could get your "hard" research skills to the same level in a U.K. PhD program as you could in a U.S. PhD program? If not, that's a genuine, value added reason to pursue a U.S. PhD program.

One benefit to applying to the U.S. PhD program from the U.K. is that the admissions committee, at least, won't have to worry about your English language proficiency in your case. This is a huge question mark and subject to considerable efforts to conceal weaknesses, with many foreign graduates. This will give you a leg up to start with. British undergraduate degrees generally also have a better reputation in the U.S. than British PhDs do. Also, in interviews, a British accent just sub-consciously comes across as smarter to an average American interviewer.

 

[CrysPhys]

My interest is in phenomenological physics, so I have been considering a research career at places like FermiLab (I especially like neutrinos so maybe DUNE). I don't think I could make it in academia, but if it ends up being an option for me I would consider it.

OK. So after your PhD, you plan to return to the US and seek a position in a US national lab. What do you find so compelling about a UK PhD? It might be advantageous to pick US universities whose faculty collaborate with the US national labs you're interested in. Something for you to think about.

 

[Vanadium 50]

My interest is in phenomenological physics, so I have been considering a research career at places like FermiLab ... I don't think I could make it in academia

Theory jobs at labs are no easier and probably a lot harder to get than theory jobs at universities.

 

[BiggsHoson]

OK. So after your PhD, you plan to return to the US and seek a position in a US national lab. What do you find so compelling about a UK PhD? It might be advantageous to pick US universities whose faculty collaborate with the US national labs you're interested in. Something for you to think about.

The main reason I would stay in the UK is to be with my long-term girlfriend; otherwise I don't think I would consider doing one here (there is no way she will move). I have emailed the places where I would be interested in doing a post-doc, and they said they would consider applicants with a UK PhD.

 

[Vanadium 50]

First, those email assurances are worthless. What they are saying is that they won't reject you out of hand, not that you will be competitive.

Second, if your girlfriend won't move to the US, how do you plan to get a job in the US? Or is the plan to dump her when you finish the degree?

 

[gwnorth]

Second, if your girlfriend won't move to the US, how do you plan to get a job in the US? Or is the plan to dump her when you finish the degree?

This was my question too. If she won't move for a PhD, why would she once you complete it? If you truly want to resettle in the US then your question is not whether you should pursue a PhD in the UK, it's whether or not your current relationship is compatible with your future goals.

 

[Vanadium 50]

The p;an might be to dump her after finishing. "It's not you...it's me."

 

[CrysPhys]

But why go through the ordeal of a UK PhD just to dump her then instead of now? Before passing judgement, we should wait to hear back from the OP. Perhaps the girlfriend is in the midst of her own program and will be finished by the time he's finished with his PhD; or, ...? We have a plot for a gnurdy soap opera.

 

[jtbell]

Sounds like yet another version of the academic two-body problem!

 

[ergospherical]

Sounds like yet another version of the academic two-body problem!

At least that one has a solution. All those poor academic throuples, on the other hand...

 

[Vanadium 50]

I'm not suggesting that's what he should do. Just that there are explanations for this rather odd plan.

In any event, we seem to be all out of follow-through, so it's probably moot. Hard to finish a PhD without it.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Oh, it's real. Typically a UK PhD has both less coursework and less research experience. It used to be almost half, but the gap has narrowed. And it definitely put UK PhDs at a disadvantage for postdocs. "Can you do XXX?" "Dummo...but I'll try."

Do you have actual data to back up your assertion that UK PhD graduates are at a disadvantage for postdoc positions?

Anecdotally, I have known people who have completed their doctoral degrees in the UK in a number of different fields (math, physics, economics, computer science, etc.) As far as I'm aware, none of them have struggled to find postdoc positions, and several have found successful careers in academia.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Do you have actual data to back up your assertion that UK PhD graduates are at a disadvantage for postdoc positions?

Just our own hiring, and the success rate of my recommendations. You may be able to find online petitions to STFC to change this.

 

[gwnorth]

Typically a UK PhD has both less coursework and less research experience.

Which is at least partially compensated for by having previously completed a master's.