Doomsday Preppers: Are They Mentally Ill?

[micromass]

Do you have car insurance? If yes why? Are you planning on having a wreck?

I don't have a car. I don't need it.

Do you have life insurance? If yes, why? Are you planning on dying tomorrow?

I see no reason to have a life insurance really. You're just paying money to the insurance company for no reason. Everybody dies some time, it's nothing special to me.

Do you have home insurance? If yes, why? Are you going to burn down your house tomorrow?

I have this one, but you got to admit, something happening to your house is far more likely than a world-wide disaster. The point of insurance is to insure you for things which are likely to happen, I'm not going to insure myself for an asteroid impact.

All these disasters you mention (EMP's, CME's,...). How many times have they occurred and caused serious damage?? Never. OK, it might happen, but there are a lot of things that might happen. Floods and storms might destroy your house and your food supplies, nuclear power plants might explode and put radiation over your food supplies. Your house might go up in flames together with your food supplies. Your food supplies might be contaminated. A gamma ray burst might happen and eredicate all life on this planet. A lion might escape the zoo and eat you. Apart from the last ones, all of this is much more likelier than an EMP.

I prefer to help people who need it now, not preparing to help myself in future events that will most likely not happen.

You do all of the above to prepare for the unknown. Prepping for disasters which the local government or national governments may not be able to handle is another form of insurance against the unknown.

So far, my local and national government have done quite well. I see no reason to doubt them.

 

[Newai]

A few final questions:

Do you have car insurance? If yes why? Are you planning on having a wreck?
Do you have life insurance? If yes, why? Are you planning on dying tomorrow?
Do you have home insurance? If yes, why? Are you going to burn down your house tomorrow?

I have car insurance because without it I couldn't get it licensed. It's the law here. Plus, if someone else hits me and doesn't have coverage, mine takes it.
I have no life insurance, but then I don't have a family. But I have health insurance. Even though I don't plan on being in an emergency, health problems almost always pop up at some point.
I don't have home insurance. I live in an apartment and most of my property value is less than what I have in my bank account.

None of these have anything to do with disasters.

And none of the basic preparation for disaster is wrong, but what started this thread were examples of people taking it to insane degrees. I suppose I could buy a hazmat suit, but I'll take my chances with the sun god.

 

[micromass]

Most hoarders have a form of OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder).

I'm sorry, Evo, but I have OCD myself and these "preppers" don't sound like they have OCD. The thing is that people with OCD know that their fears are irrational. They make very illogical connections and they know that it is illogical. They are simply unable to confront their fears.

Preppers also have irrational fears, but they rationalize their fears. They actually convince themselves that their fears might become reality. This is not the behaviour of somebody with OCD.

 

[BobG]

Is that really how you think of your neighbours and friends?? People who will come after you to steal everything of you? Wow, I find that actually quite sad. I honestly don't think you will survive long with such an attitude.

In Japan, there were two nuclear power plants that got destroyed and did we see any rioting there? Did we see people killing other people for food? No, the emergency workers operated quite swiftly and helped as many as they could. This is how it will go in almost every disaster!

It's clear you don't like Obama and your government, but there are people out there who will protect you and who will help you in emergencies. The nature of humans is cooperation, not isolation.

It is true that looting in natural disasters is much rarer than public thinks. A lot of that has to do with looting being a very visually compelling image when shown on television. People also overestimate the danger of being a victim of crime when any crime in the entire nation feels like local crime when people watch it on TV in their own living rooms.

If you live in a high crime neighborhood, crime won't stop just because there's a natural disaster. It will decrease, though. If you live in a neighborhood with a low crime rate, criminals won't suddenly come flocking to your door just because there's a natural disaster, either. In fact, the crime rate in your neighborhood will usually decrease.

So, I don't see preparing to kill the neighbors as a necessary precaution.

None the less, it is reasonable to be prepared for power outages or a lack of transportation or a lack of clean water. Have some idea of how you'd handle the situation without the assistance of emergency workers for a few days, at least. And, usually, having neighbors would be an asset in that type of situation; not a threat.

But, if you live in the wrong place and the wrong time, there's just a chance that being prepared to kill your neighbors could make you one of the lucky ones. I still remember reading about the siege of Leningrad. Holy cow! I think some situations are just beyond preparing for and situations where an entire city is so weak from hunger that they've given up counting the dead, let alone burying them, would be one of those situations. But one could certainly say that those who were prepared to kill other humans for food had a better chance of living than those who weren't. Those who had a little too much flesh and a little bit too healthy of a complexion were regarded as goulish and frightening, whether their health was a result of their ability to hoard wealth in a siege or the result of outright cannabilism.

 

[Evo]

I just think they are really sensitive people who are really scared by all the fear mongering of the media. There might be some paranoid people out there (certainly the ones you described in the national geographic show)

That's what I'm talking about, people that have underground bunkers, put their children through drills, stuff that's really beyond normal.

There is a town in france that has been swarmed with Raelians that believe that it is the only place on Earth that will escape the Mayan 2012 doomsday.

I'll get the articles.

I love one guy's comment "every year as December 31st approaches on my calendar, I realize that the end of my calendar means the end of time. Then my kids get me a new calendar for Christmas and everything is ok for another year".

He actually said it better, but you get the gist.

 

[lisab]

That's what I'm talking about, people that have underground bunkers, put their children through drills, stuff that's really beyond normal.

There is a town in france that has been swarmed with Raelians that believe that it is the only place on Earth that will escape the Mayan 2012 doomsday.

I'll get the articles.

I love one guy's comment "every year as December 31st approaches on my calendar, I realize that the end of my calendar means the end of time. Then my kids get me a new calendar for Christmas and everything is ok for another year".

He actually said it better, but you get the gist.

Is this the one?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...vive-2012-Armageddon-plagued-by-visitors.html

The mayor of a picturesque French village has threatened to call in the army to seal it off from a tide of New Age fanatics and UFO watchers, who are convinced it is the only place on Earth to be spared Armageddon in 2012.

I feel bad for those villagers.

 

[rootX]

Post disaster crisis handling is job of the government not of individuals.

All the government agencies advice on what kind of measures should be taken during crisis.

 

[Evo]

Is this the one?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...vive-2012-Armageddon-plagued-by-visitors.html

I feel bad for those villagers.

Yes, very sad for those poor villagers.

See here.

http://old.news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110616/od_uk_nm/oukoe_uk_france_sects

 

[micromass]

I say who cares what others teach their children, it is THEIR children NOT yours.

Children are not your private property, you can't just do with them whatever you like. Hitting your children hard is child abuse. Telling children that other people are after you and want to steal whatever you have is child abuse. Lletting children do drills and instilling fear in them is child abuse. I don't think this should be tolerated.

 

[BavarianRaven]

The point is that the people in the superdome just didn't have the money to stock up food.

all it takes is 10 or 15 dollars a week and a bit of creativity to stock-pile several weeks worth of food and water...

If your home is under water, and all of your survival kits are under water, what's your point?

BOB... a bug-out-bag. a small kit to grab should you have to flee. some water and food and clothing and medical supplies and a few other goodies to keep you going until you reach somewhere safe :)

 

[micromass]

A few cans of beans, some water, ramen noodles. Does not seem like that would cost a lot.

Well, perhaps the people did that. But then suddenly they find their houses underwater and their supplies ruined. What to do then?
The thing with Katrina was that nobody expected the levees would break. If they didn't break, then most would have been fine.

We all saw Katrina comming a week in advance. Plenty of time to prepare, be it stocking up on food and stuff or hoofing it out of there. People chose to be lazy and not do anything.

Haha, that's not the first time I heard that poor people are lazy. Well, I guess it says quite a lot about you.

 

[Evo]

To be clear, we are discussing armageddon, holocaust nutters in this thread.

We are not discussing hurricane or other storm preparedness scenarios.

We're not discussing people that fear a few weeks of a power outage. We are discussing people that, as that woman on the show said

Mother: We have no other purpose in life than to prepare for armageddon.

 

[ideasrule]

Everyone has their own limits for the risks they're willing to take, and if someone wants to stockpile a few days' worth of food just in case a disaster hits, I think that's fine. However, stockpiling weeks of food for an EMP when there's absolutely no credible threat of an EMP is just ridiculous. You're probably much more likely to die while driving or crossing the road than you are to ever use those supplies.

 

[micromass]

Point is preparations are not only physical things. Like I said, we all saw it coming people chose to do nothing. Don't throw the "they were too poor to do anything for themself" card, been played already.

So basically you're saying that I can't throw that card because you don't like that argument?? It happens to be the reality here.

 

[BavarianRaven]

Everyone has their own limits for the risks they're willing to take, and if someone wants to stockpile a few days' worth of food just in case a disaster hits, I think that's fine. However, stockpiling weeks of food for an EMP when there's absolutely no credible threat of an EMP is just ridiculous. You're probably much more likely to die while driving or crossing the road than you are to ever use those supplies.

i wouldn't put the risk at 0% for an EMP. It has happened before: the sun can cause an EMF blast (happened in the eighteen hundreds and fried telegraph lines. Today, potentially, it could be much much worse). Rare it is... but not impossible. Better to need it and have it then need it and not have it.

And as an aside (not that I have or will do this...but for the sake of argument), if I want to stock-pile 5 years of food and can afford to do so, what gives you the right to say that its stupid or should not be allowed. Am I hurting you? Nope. If I want to teach myself to defend myself in a dozen ways? is that hurting you? Nope. If I want to grow all of my own food and am not bugging anyone? SHould I not be allowed to do that?

Granted, you should not be scaring young kids like that. Now that being said, there is nothing wrong with teaching kids to defend themselves (once they are old enough to realize what they are learning and are mature enough too). Heck, better this then letting the TV raise your kids imho, or letting them get into drugs and alcohol and the such...

 

[Evo]

i wouldn't put the risk at 0% for an EMP. It has happened before: the sun can cause an EMF blast (happened in the eighteen hundreds and fried telegraph lines. Today, potentially, it could be much much worse). Rare it is... but not impossible. Better to need it and have it then need it and not have it.

The 1800's, yeah, post that. How many people had phones in the 1800's?

And as an aside (not that I have or will do this...but for the sake of argument), if I want to stock-pile 5 years of food and can afford to do so, what gives you the right to say that its stupid or should not be allowed. Am I hurting you? Nope.

And if you had bothered to read this thread, you'd see that we have no problem with hoarders, if that's all you are.

 

[Evo]

Saying nobody expected the levees to break is an exaggeration. In fact, the fear of the levees breaking was one of the reasons for trying to evacuate the entire city.

It is true that many of the people that stayed didn't believe the levees would break. Or that believed they could take care of themselves and weather it out in their attic. Hence the other warnings also put out on TV that those foolish enough to try to weather it out in their attic should at least take something with them so they could cut through the roof when the water got too high.

And, even some of those that believed there was a possibility of the levees breaking stayed - either because of a lack of transportation or because they were afraid someone would loot their house while they were gone.

The possibility of the levees breaking was no surprise to the overwhelming majority of people in the town. It was only a surprise to those that refused to believe the warnings.

I would be shocked if there were even one household that was prepared to evacuate in an emergency that found their supplies suddenly ruined because the levees broke.

Bob, you live in Colorado, how much food have you stockpiled?

And no more hurricanes and tornadoes, this is about wacko armageddon. Any more off topic posts will be deleted and infractions given.

 

[ideasrule]

i wouldn't put the risk at 0% for an EMP. It has happened before: the sun can cause an EMF blast (happened in the eighteen hundreds and fried telegraph lines. Today, potentially, it could be much much worse). Rare it is... but not impossible. Better to need it and have it then need it and not have it.

It's not impossible, but if it's much less likely than me dying of a heart attack or in a car crash, I'd rather focus on those scenarios.

And as an aside (not that I have or will do this...but for the sake of argument), if I want to stock-pile 5 years of food and can afford to do so, what gives you the right to say that its stupid or should not be allowed. Am I hurting you? Nope.

The fact that you're not hurting me doesn't automatically make your opinions 100% correct. You're perfectly free to stockpile 5 years of food, just as I'm perfectly free to believe that Earth is flat, but that doesn't mean either is rational.

 

[Viktor_Reznov]

Ok this has gone off to the deep end.

I don't care to debate my lifestyle and what I feel is right for my family in good days or bad.

Some people are making a case from a TV show which was cut and edited to make it more spectacular than it is.

If you want more info PM me, also my email should be in my profile.


Want some more information? Go listen to something like the survival podcast who're motto is:

Helping You Live the Life You Want, If Times Get Tough, Or Even If They Don't

Ciao ;)

 

[BavarianRaven]

And if you had bothered to read this thread, you'd see that we have no problem with hoarders, if that's all you are

evidently you do. its called being prepared...not hoarding ;)
sure a small percent do have OCD and the such... most are just people who want to see their family and friends cared for should the worse happen.

he 1800's, yeah, post that. How many people had phones in the 1800's?

thats the whole point. no one knows how bad it would be today? it might be nothing... or it could nock out everything from computers to cars to planes and the such... and imagine the hell that could create. the odds are low. but i like playing it safe =D

 

[rootX]

While all the intelligent rational people were sitting on their roof waiting for the government to save them.

While the rational

Quoting my original post:

Post disaster crisis handling is job of the government not of individuals.

All the government agencies advice on what kind of measures should be taken during crisis.

You don't need to go to self proclaimed experts to know how to prepare for disasters. Neither, you need to be self proclaimed expert to be prepared for disasters.

 

[micromass]

evidently you do. its called being prepared...not hoarding ;)
sure a small percent do have OCD and the such... most are just people who want to see their family and friends cared for should the worse happen.

Well, it is hoarding. And it's not a bad thing to do. We're discussing the nutters on national geographic, not the people that are "prepared".

thats the whole point. no one knows how bad it would be today? it might be nothing... or it could nock out everything from computers to cars to planes and the such... and imagine the hell that could create. the odds are low. but i like playing it safe =D

And you think that our technology didn't improve with respect to 1800?? And you think that power companies don't anticipate the trouble??

 

[BavarianRaven]

The fact that you're not hurting me doesn't automatically make your opinions 100% correct. You're perfectly free to stockpile 5 years of food, just as I'm perfectly free to believe that Earth is flat, but that doesn't mean either is rational.

Doesnt mean i am 100% wrong either. (and i don't believe the world is flat).
But it doesn't make me a bad person either if I want to do this either. ;)

 

[BavarianRaven]

Well, it is hoarding. And it's not a bad thing to do. We're discussing the nutters on national geographic, not the people that are "prepared

yes, but we are getting lumped together. :/

And you think that our technology didn't improve with respect to 1800?? And you think that power companies don't anticipate the trouble??
__________________

the problem is... its not as easy as you make it sound. Military hardware is "hardened" for EMP shocks... civilian and transport technology not so much. sadly. :/ (the problem is of course cost)

 

[BobG]

i wouldn't put the risk at 0% for an EMP. It has happened before: the sun can cause an EMF blast (happened in the eighteen hundreds and fried telegraph lines. Today, potentially, it could be much much worse). Rare it is... but not impossible. Better to need it and have it then need it and not have it.

Geez, guys, get your acronyms straight. EMPs are caused by nuclear explosions and didn't happen in the 1800's. CMEs are caused by the Sun, and you're right it fried telegraph lines in the 1800's. Long power lines are also vulnerable. The longer, the more vulnerable.

In the 1800's, that wasn't even a known risk. In the 2000's, not only is it a known risk, but we have satellites that warn us a CME is on the way hours before it arrives (or at least the mass part of Coronal Mass Ejections). Power companies have methods to reduce the risk of a CME causing a blackout.

Yes, there is still a chance of a CME causing a blackout. No, there's not a chance that every precaution every power company takes will fail. The worst case is a local blackout; not a world catastrophe.

 

[DoD2706982608]

I'm a prepper and I'm shocked by this thread.
I became a prepper AFTER a natural disaster that i was not prepared for. A hurricane.
I had no water, no electric, no sewer, no way to drive for help, no cell phone service, and no land line for over a week.
I ran out of food very quickly. If it had gone on for another week, i would have had to start eating pets.
And that was only a category 1 hurricane.
I now keep at least a month's worth of free dried food in the house at all times, and i stock up on water when i here a hurricane is expected.

If being labeled "mentally ill" means i'll survive the next time. then so be it.

 

[micromass]

yes, but we are getting lumped together. :/

Well, I don't think anybody here lumped you together. If I did, then I'm sorry for that. I don't agree with you, but you're not mentally ill either.

 

[Evo]

Doesnt mean i am 100% wrong either. (and i don't believe the world is flat).
But it doesn't make me a bad person either if I want to do this either. ;)

As said before, if all you are doing is hoarding, more power to you.

 

[micromass]

I'm a prepper and I'm shocked by this thread.
I became a prepper AFTER a natural disaster that i was not prepared for. A hurricane.
I had no water, no electric, no sewer, no way to drive for help, no cell phone service, and no land line for over a week.
I ran out of food very quickly. If it had gone on for another week, i would have had to start eating pets.
And that was only a category 1 hurricane.
I now keep at least a month's worth of free dried food in the house at all times, and i stock up on water when i here a hurricane is expected.

If being labeled "mentally ill" means i'll survive the next time. then so be it.

We're not talking about that kind of thing here. We're talking about doomsday preppers. Keeping a month's worth of food is a good thing to do (certainly in a hurricane unsafe zone). Drilling your children for a doomsday scenario is not ok.

 

[DaveC426913]

We're discussing the nutters on national geographic, not the people that are "prepared".

I think this is key, and puts the thread back on topic.

The issue, I think, is where do you draw the line between them?

One man's prepared is another's nutter. Who here claims the right to have a bigger share of opinion than another?

I guess it really comes down to probabilities. Each of us assigns a probability to the way civilization might fall, and when. The way we assign them can vary wildly.

 

[BavarianRaven]

think this is key, and puts the thread back on topic.

The issue, I think, is where do you draw the line between them?

One man's prepared is another's nutter. Who here claims the right to have a bigger share of opinion than another?

this.

 

[BobG]

Bob, you live in Colorado, how much food have you stockpiled?

And no more hurricanes and tornadoes, this is about wacko armageddon. Any more off topic posts will be deleted and infractions given.

That's not fair. We only have blizzards and tornadoes in Colorado. We don't have any armageddons. Heck, we don't even have armadillos!

But I do make sure I have cold weather gear and my winch gear in my Jeep before I head off across the prairie in a blizzard.

 

[Evo]

I think this is key, and puts the thread back on topic.

The issue, I think, is where do you draw the line between them?

One man's prepared is another's nutter. Who here claims the right to have a bigger share of opinion than another?

I guess it really comes down to probabilities. Each of us assigns a probability to the way civilization might fall, and when. The way we assign them can vary wildly.

I draw the line at the ones that gather weapons and practice shooting at human targets because they believe that they will have to kill their neighbors.

A good place to draw the line?

 

[DoD2706982608]

We're not talking about that kind of thing here. We're talking about doomsday preppers. Keeping a month's worth of food is a good thing to do (certainly in a hurricane unsafe zone). Drilling your children for a doomsday scenario is not ok.

Is is ok if i teach my dog how to dial 911 in case I'm incapacitated?

 

[micromass]

Is is ok if i teach my dog how to dial 911 in case I'm incapacitated?

You might go on "america's got talent" with that.

 

[Evo]

Is is ok if i teach my dog how to dial 911 in case I'm incapacitated?

My cat dialed 911 once, try explaining that to the county sheriff. He had no idea what to do when I told him what my daughter claimed happened. She said he jumped on the fax machine, knocked the handset off (with buttons on the handset) and she thinks when he walked over the phone, he must have managed to hit the right buttons. She said she heared a voice coming from the phone, got scared and hung it up. :p

 

[BavarianRaven]

I draw the line at the ones that gather weapons and practice shooting at human targets because they believe that they will have to kill their neighbors.

A good place to draw the line?

i'd put the line closer to the giant unground bunker complex but that's just me. some of these people are over the line, some are not. I have lived in some really shady neighbourhoods and defending your life/friend's life/property is not over the line imo. (granted there are some loons out there that just want to hurt people...they are sick). The problem arises (as in Katrina), you have supplies you need to keep your family and yourself alive. Your neighbours dont. There is not enough to go around... so do you help your neighbours and feed 'em (or give them water, etc) for a day then starve together. Or do you defend your stuff and keep yourself and your family alive? Its a tough question and I know everyone will answer differently... but family should come first imo. (at least they do to me, imo).

 

[DaveC426913]

Always always keep in mind that, if there's a reality TV show about it, you can guarantee nothing about it is real. They blow this up for the shock value. Don't fall for it.

 

[Evo]

Always always keep in mind that, if there's a reality TV show about it, you can guarantee nothing about it is real. They blow this up for the shock value. Don't fall for it.

Then you haven't seen the serious websites for these people.

 

[DaveC426913]

Then you haven't seen the serious websites for these people.

Mm. Fair 'nuff.

 

[Evo]

There are some sane people there, people that understand that's it's wrong to subject children to end of the world scenarios. That's not right for a child. A group of adults that want to collect stuff, no problem. Adults that force children through daily drills to don hazmat suits because the end of the world is next year, no.

 

[Loren Booda]

How do these doomsdayers meet the definition of mental illness? They may be ignorant or superstitious, but that does not qualify as a medical condition. People who have lived with mental illness include Newton, Beethoven and Buzz Aldrin.

 

[Evo]

How do these doomsdayers meet the definition of mental illness? They may be ignorant or superstitious, but that does not qualify as a medical condition. People who have lived with mental illness include Newton, Beethoven and Buzz Aldrin.

Mental illness covers a vast range Loren, you should know that. A huge number of mentally ill people hold jobs, have families, and live next door. It just depends on what the mental illness results in.

 

[DaveC426913]

There are some sane people there, people that understand that's it's wrong to subject people to end of the world scenarious. That's not right for a child. A group of adults that want to collect stuff, no problem. Adults that force children through daily drills to don hazmat suits because the end of the world is next year, no.

Agreed. Being prepared comes with it a responsibility to understand the likelihood of various types of disasters happening. I've already had a power outage here, in a major North American megalopolis, so that's a relatively high likelihood.

But why do these people believe so strongly in a 2012 disaster?

Actually, I guess I know why. The Bell curve of human behaviour.

 

[bill1064]

I draw the line at the ones that gather weapons and practice shooting at human targets because they believe that they will have to kill their neighbors.

A good place to draw the line?

Cool, I generally practice on targets that look a lot like the sign in front of Target.

And I don't intend to shoot my neighbors. I only plan to shoot people who try to steal from me.

I hope I never have to.

So far as the people teaching their kids about prepping. The consensus over on http://www.survivalistboards.com/ is that you are right. Let them be kids. But someone should talk to the parents instead of snatching their kids away.

 

[Evo]

Cool, I generally practice on targets that look a lot like the sign in front of Target.

And I don't intend to shoot my neighbors. I only plan to shoot people who try to steal from me.

I hope I never have to.

So far as the people teaching their kids about prepping. The consensus over on http://www.survivalistboards.com/ is that you are right. Let them be kids. But someone should talk to the parents instead of snatching their kids away.

That's been my question all along, should people be allowed to do this to small children? I never said take their children away, but someone needs to intervene on behalf of the kids. It's so sad. Especially when it's avoidable and there is no reason for it. Do we tell a child every time that they get into a car that they may die a horrible death?

 

[DaveC426913]

Let them be kids.

When I started stockpiling a few things to get through a few days or a week of disaster, I took great pains to keep my actions and the stash hidden from my children.

They have enough on their plate getting through normal life. My role as a parent is to quietly plan for the .1% disasters so they can get on with the 99.9% likelihood of their real lives.

 

[bill1064]

Agreed. Being prepared comes with it a responsibility to understand the likelihood of various types of disasters happening. I've already had a power outage here, in a major North American megalopolis, so that's a relatively high likelihood.

But why do these people believe so strongly in a 2012 disaster?

Actually, I guess I know why. The Bell curve of human behaviour.

Actually most preppers don't buy the 2012 thing. The 2012ers are a small offshoot.

2012 theorists gravitate to the prepping and survival world because, where else would they learn about surviving a disaster?


And Dave, isn't laughing at people who have beliefs different from your a bit low on the bell curve too?

 

[DaveC426913]

Do we tell a child every time that they get into a car that they may die a horrible death?

No, but not the best analogy. Telling them about the likelihood of a car crash does not help them prepare for it and hone their skills to deal with it, which is the principle of what these preppers are trying to do, even if they do have a skewed idea of what's going to happen next Christmas.

 

[KrisOhn]

Reading this thread makes me wonder, what happens when you run out of food and the world is still in chaos? Why not just learn to survive in a wilderness situation than horde food?

I'm glad I was raised on a farm and spent nearly every weekend minimalist camping in the woods, if I wanted to I could go out as I am now and find myself supper, does that mean I ever expect to use these skills in a situation these people are outlining? No.