Double Induction: Proving Addition is Commutative

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the application of double induction to prove that addition is commutative for natural numbers, specifically that for any natural numbers \( m \) and \( n \), \( m+n=n+m \). Participants explore the structure of the proof, the validity of the inductive steps, and the properties of natural numbers used in the reasoning.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant outlines a proof using double induction, detailing base cases and inductive steps for both \( m \) and \( n \).
  • Another participant questions the application of properties of natural numbers, specifically the associative property, in transitioning between expressions.
  • There is a discussion about whether the proof structure requires re-establishing the inductive hypothesis for \( m \) after fixing \( n \).
  • Participants express uncertainty about the correctness of the proof and the use of properties like associativity and commutativity in the steps presented.
  • One participant suggests that the dropping of parentheses involves both associative and commutative properties.
  • There is a concern about whether the proof can be simplified or if certain steps need to be explicitly stated to avoid ambiguity.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express uncertainty about the correctness of the double induction application and whether certain properties of natural numbers can be used as stated. There is no consensus on the validity of the proof structure or the necessity of re-establishing certain hypotheses.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include potential missing assumptions regarding the properties of natural numbers and the clarity of the inductive steps. The discussion does not resolve whether the proof is correct or if the properties are applied appropriately.

mathmari
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Hey! :o

I am looking for an example of an application of the double induction.

For that I tried to show that the addition is commutative: For $m,n\in \mathbb{N}$ it holds that $m+n=n+m$. I have done the following:

For each $n\in \mathbb{N}$ let $E_n$ be the proposition: $\forall m\in \mathbb{N}: m+n=n+m$.

Base Case:
For $n = 1$ we want to show that $\forall m\in \mathbb{N}: m+1=1+m$

  • Base Case: For $m=1$ the left side is equal to $1+1=2$ and the right side is the same.
  • Inductive Hypothesis: Let the proposition hold for a specific $m\in \mathbb{N}$, i.e. let$m+1=1+m$ (I.H.1)
  • Inductive Step: We want to show that the proposition holds also for $m+1$, so $(m+1)+1=1+(m+1)$.
    We have the following:
    \begin{equation*}(m+1)+1 \overset{\text{ (I.H.1) }}{ = } (1+m)+1=1+m+1=1+(m+1)\end{equation*}
    Therefore the proposition holds for $m + 1$.
Inductive Hypothesis:
We suppose that the proposition holds for a specific $n\in \mathbb{N}$, i.e. let $\forall m\in \mathbb{N}: m+n=n+m$ (I.H.2) Inductive Step:
We want to show that the proposition holds also for $n+1$, so $\forall m\in \mathbb{N}: m+(n+1)=(n+1)+m$.

  • Base Case: For $m=1$ the left side is equal to $1+(n+1)=1+n+1=(1+n)+1\overset{\text{ (I.H.2) }}{ = }(n+1)+1=n+1+1=n+2$ and the right side is equal to $(n+1)+1=n+1+1=n+2$.
  • Inductive Hypothesis: We suppose that the proposition holds for a specific $m\in \mathbb{N}$, i.e. let $m+(n+1)=(n+1)+m$ (I.H.3)
  • Inductive Step: We want to show that the proposition holds also for $m+1$, so $(m+1)+(n+1)=(n+1)+(m+1)$.
    We have the following:
    \begin{align*}(m+1)+(n+1)&=m+1+n+1 \\ & =m+(1+n)+1 \\ & \overset{\text{ (I.B.2) }}{ = }m+(n+1)+1 \\ & =m+n+1+1 \\ & =m+(n+1)+1 \\ & \overset{\text{ (I.B.3) }}{ = }(n+1)+m+1 \\ & =(n+1)+(m+1)\end{align*}
    Therefore the proposition holds for $m + 1$.
Is the way I applied the inductions correct? (Wondering)
 
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Re: Double Induction

mathmari said:
Hey! :o

I am looking for an example of an application of the double induction.

For that I tried to show that the addition is commutative: For $m,n\in \mathbb{N}$ it holds that $m+n=n+m$. I have done the following:

For each $n\in \mathbb{N}$ let $E_n$ be the proposition: $\forall m\in \mathbb{N}: m+n=n+m$.

Base Case:
For $n = 1$ we want to show that $\forall m\in \mathbb{N}: m+1=1+m$

  • Base Case: For $m=1$ the left side is equal to $1+1=2$ and the right side is the same.
  • Inductive Hypothesis: Let the proposition hold for a specific $m\in \mathbb{N}$, i.e. let$m+1=1+m$ (I.H.1)
  • Inductive Step: We want to show that the proposition holds also for $m+1$, so $(m+1)+1=1+(m+1)$.
    We have the following:
    \begin{equation*}(m+1)+1 \overset{\text{ (I.H.1) }}{ = } (1+m)+1=1+m+1=1+(m+1)\end{equation*}
    Therefore the proposition holds for $m + 1$.
Inductive Hypothesis:
We suppose that the proposition holds for a specific $n\in \mathbb{N}$, i.e. let $\forall m\in \mathbb{N}: m+n=n+m$ (I.H.2) Inductive Step:
We want to show that the proposition holds also for $n+1$, so $\forall m\in \mathbb{N}: m+(n+1)=(n+1)+m$.

  • Base Case: For $m=1$ the left side is equal to $1+(n+1)=1+n+1=(1+n)+1\overset{\text{ (I.H.2) }}{ = }(n+1)+1=n+1+1=n+2$ and the right side is equal to $(n+1)+1=n+1+1=n+2$.
  • Inductive Hypothesis: We suppose that the proposition holds for a specific $m\in \mathbb{N}$, i.e. let $m+(n+1)=(n+1)+m$ (I.H.3)
  • Inductive Step: We want to show that the proposition holds also for $m+1$, so $(m+1)+(n+1)=(n+1)+(m+1)$.
    We have the following:
    \begin{align*}(m+1)+(n+1)&=m+1+n+1 \\ & =m+(1+n)+1 \\ & \overset{\text{ (I.B.2) }}{ = }m+(n+1)+1 \\ & =m+n+1+1 \\ & =m+(n+1)+1 \\ & \overset{\text{ (I.B.3) }}{ = }(n+1)+m+1 \\ & =(n+1)+(m+1)\end{align*}
    Therefore the proposition holds for $m + 1$.
Is the way I applied the inductions correct? (Wondering)
In going from (1+m)+1 to 1+m+1 and then to 1+(m+1) what axioms or theorems of the natural Nos do you apply??
 
Re: Double Induction

solakis said:
In going from (1+m)+1 to 1+m+1 and then to 1+(m+1) what axioms or theorems of the natural Nos do you apply??

We apply here the associative property. Can we not apply that property? (Wondering)
 
Re: Double Induction

mathmari said:
We apply here the associative property. Can we not apply that property? (Wondering)

Yes that is the propery,only in going from (1+m)+1 to 1+(m+1)
The dropping of parenthesis is a combination of the associative and the commutative property of the natural Nos.

So,sofar you have proved :$$\forall m[m+1=1+m]$$

Now you want to prove : m+n=n+m for all n,m

Let us start by using induction on ,n while we keep m fixed

for n=1 we have m+1=1+m as proved previously.........1

Suppose now for n=k ,m+k=k+m is true..........2

If we can prove for n=k+1 , m+(k+1)=(k+1)+m is true ,we are done

Proof:

m+(k+1)=

=(m+k) +1=......by using the associative property of natural Nos

=(k+m)+1 =...............by using (2)

=k+(m+1)=.......by using the associative property and the law of equality: A=B<=>B=A

=k+(1+m)=...............by using (1)

= (k+1)+m.........by using the associative property e.t.c,e.t.c

You can repeat the whole thing by doing induction on m ,while keeping n constant
 
Re: Double Induction

So, you mean that we apply the induction twice, once for $n$ when $m$ is fixed and once for $m$ when $n$ is fixed? So, is the way I applied the double induction wrong? (Wondering)
solakis said:
In going from (1+m)+1 to 1+m+1 and then to 1+(m+1) what axioms or theorems of the natural Nos do you apply??

Do we maybe have to write $ (1+m)+1=1+(m+1)$ instead of $ (1+m)+1 = 1+m+1 = 1+(m+1)$, or can we not use that property at all? (Wondering)
 
Sorry for the delay i have problems with my computer, i will answer later
 
Re: Double Induction

mathmari said:
So, you mean that we apply the induction twice, once for $n$ when $m$ is fixed and once for $m$ when $n$ is fixed? So, is the way I applied the double induction wrong?
(Wondering)

Let us follow your procedure.

You write:

"Inductive Hypothesis:
We suppose that the proposition holds for a specific $n\in \mathbb{N}$, i.e. let $\forall m\in \mathbb{N}: m+n=n+m$ (I.H.2)"

Don't you have to prove again :$$\forall m[m+n=m+m]$$

mathmari said:
Do we maybe have to write $ (1+m)+1=1+(m+1)$ instead of $ (1+m)+1 = 1+m+1 = 1+(m+1)$, or can we not use that property at all? (Wondering)

In going from (1+m)+1 to 1+(m+1) we do use associativity ,but in going from (1+m)+1 to 1+m+1 what do we use??
 
Last edited:

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