Eigenspace is a subspace of V - ψ is diagonalizable

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the properties of linear operators on a vector space, specifically focusing on the relationship between two commuting operators, $\phi$ and $\psi$. Participants explore the implications of eigenvalues and eigenspaces, particularly whether the eigenspace of $\phi$ corresponding to an eigenvalue is invariant under the action of $\psi$. The conversation includes technical reasoning and mathematical exploration.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that for $\lambda \in \text{spec}(\phi)$, it holds that $\text{Eig}(\phi, \lambda) \leq_{\psi} V$, questioning the meaning of the notation $\leq_{\psi}$.
  • There is a discussion about whether the linearity of $\phi$ implies the properties of eigenvectors without needing to reference $\psi$.
  • Participants explore the relationship between the eigenvalues of $\phi$ and the potential eigenvalues of $\psi$, considering the implications of the commutativity of $\phi$ and $\psi$.
  • Some participants suggest that if $\psi(v_i) \neq 0$, then $\psi(v_i)$ could also be an eigenvector of $\phi$ for the same eigenvalue $\lambda_i$.
  • There is a debate about whether the eigenspace $\text{Eig}(\phi, \lambda_i)$ is $\psi$-invariant, with some participants proposing that it may not be the case.
  • One participant notes that every vector in $\text{Eig}(\phi, \lambda_i)$ is transformed by $\psi$ into another vector in the same eigenspace, leading to the conclusion that $\text{Eig}(\phi, \lambda_i)$ is an invariant subspace of $\psi$.
  • However, there is confusion regarding the terminology of "invariant" and what property is being preserved under $\psi$.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of the linearity of $\phi$ and the role of $\psi$ in determining eigenspaces. While some agree that $\text{Eig}(\phi, \lambda_i)$ can be considered $\psi$-invariant, others challenge this notion and suggest that counterexamples could exist. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the precise nature of the relationship between the eigenspaces and the operators.

Contextual Notes

Participants note potential ambiguities in the notation and definitions used, particularly regarding the meaning of $\leq_{\psi}$ and the conditions under which eigenspaces are considered invariant. There is also uncertainty about the dependence of eigenvectors on the distinctness of eigenvalues.

  • #31
Klaas van Aarsen said:
Let's not call it $\lambda$ to avoid confusion with the $\lambda$ we already have. Let's call the eigenvalue $\mu$.
So we have to show that $\psi(v)=\mu v$... (Sweating)

We have that $\phi (v)=\lambda v \Rightarrow v=\phi (v)\lambda^{-1}$. Then we get $\psi (v)=\psi \left (\phi (v)\lambda^{-1}\right )\Rightarrow \psi (v)=\lambda^{-1} \phi \left (\psi (v)\right )$.

That doesn't help us, does it? :unsure:
 
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  • #32
mathmari said:
We have that $\phi (v)=\lambda v \Rightarrow v=\phi (v)\lambda^{-1}$. Then we get $\psi (v)=\psi \left (\phi (v)\lambda^{-1}\right )\Rightarrow \psi (v)=\lambda^{-1} \phi \left (\psi (v)\right )$.

That doesn't help us, does it?
That's not necessarily true is it? Suppose $\lambda=0$, then $\lambda^{-1}$ is not defined. :eek:

We have that $\psi(v)=0$.
Can we find a scalar $\mu$ such that $\psi(v)=\mu v$? 🤨
 
  • #33
Klaas van Aarsen said:
We have that $\psi(v)=0$.
Can we find a scalar $\mu$ such that $\psi(v)=\mu v$? 🤨

It holds for $\mu=0$.
 
  • #34
mathmari said:
It holds for $\mu=0$.
Indeed... 🙄
 
  • #35
Klaas van Aarsen said:
Indeed... 🙄

What does this mean? :unsure:
 
  • #36
mathmari said:
What does this mean?
It means that $v$ is an eigenvector of $\psi$ with eigenvalue $0$ instead of eigenvalue $\lambda$. 😲
 
  • #37
Klaas van Aarsen said:
It means that $v$ is an eigenvector of $\psi$ with eigenvalue $0$ instead of eigenvalue $\lambda$. 😲

For $\phi$ there are $n$ distinct eigenvalues $\lambda_i$'s and the corresponding eigenvectors $v_i$'s.
We want to show that each $v_i$ is also an eigenvector of $\psi$ for some eigenvalue $\mu$.
We shown that
\begin{equation*}\psi \left (\phi (v)\right )=\psi \left (\lambda v\right )\Rightarrow \left (\psi \circ \phi \right )(v)=\lambda \psi \left ( v\right )\Rightarrow \left (\phi\circ\psi \right )(v)=\lambda \psi \left ( v\right ) \Rightarrow \phi \left (\psi(v) \right )=\lambda \psi \left ( v\right )\end{equation*}
If $\psi (v)\ne 0$ then $\psi (v)$ is also an eigenvector for $\lambda$, i.e. $\psi (v)\in \text{Eig}(\phi, \lambda)$.
If $\psi (v)=0$ then the corresponding eigenvalue is $0$.

Is everything correct so far? Or am I thinking in a wrong way for that question? :unsure:
 
  • #38
mathmari said:
If $\psi (v)\ne 0$ then $\psi (v)$ is also an eigenvector for $\lambda$, i.e. $\psi (v)\in \text{Eig}(\phi, \lambda)$.
If $\psi (v)=0$ then the corresponding eigenvalue is $0$.

Is everything correct so far? Or am I thinking in a wrong way for that question?
All correct. (Nod)

Btw, $\psi (v)\in \text{Eig}(\phi, \lambda)$ holds in both cases, i.e. it does not distinguish the first case from the second. 🧐
 
  • #39
Klaas van Aarsen said:
All correct. (Nod)

Btw, $\psi (v)\in \text{Eig}(\phi, \lambda)$ holds in both cases, i.e. it does not distinguish the first case from the second. 🧐

But how does it follow from that that the numbers of distinct eigenvectors is $n$ ?
 
  • #40
mathmari said:
But how does it follow from that that the numbers of distinct eigenvectors is $n$ ?
$\phi$ has $n$ distinct eigenvalues $\lambda_i$ with corresponding eigenvectors $v_i$.
The set of those eigenvectors is consequently an independent set of $n$ vectors.
Therefore the $v_i$ form a basis of $V$. 🤔

The same eigenvectors are also eigenvectors of $\psi$ aren't they?
They just don't necessarily have the same eigenvalues, and there are not necessarily $n$ distinct eigenvalues any more.
That is, $0$ can be an eigenvalue with multiplicity greater than 1.
Either way, they still form a basis of $V$, don't they? 🤠
 

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