Electromagnetic waves vs the laws

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the application of the conservation of energy to light in the universe, the nature of the universe as a closed or open system, and the implications of the universe's expansion. Participants explore theoretical aspects, including whether the universe is losing energy and the future behavior of cosmic expansion.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that the conservation of energy applies universally, suggesting the universe is a closed system.
  • Others argue that global conservation of energy cannot be defined for non-stationary systems like an expanding universe, although local conservation applies.
  • There is a question about whether the universe is expanding and if the expansion rate is increasing, with some affirming this and referencing external sources.
  • Some participants speculate on the future of the universe, including the possibility of isolated systems forming as distances between galaxies increase.
  • Concerns are raised about energy loss from light escaping into the void, with some noting that this occurs regardless of the universe's large-scale behavior.
  • A few participants highlight that the future of the universe remains an open question, with various potential scenarios including continued expansion or eventual collapse.
  • Some assert that the universe can expand at any rate, regardless of whether it is finite or infinite.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the conservation of energy in the context of an expanding universe, the nature of the universe as a closed or open system, and the implications of cosmic expansion. The discussion remains unresolved on several key points.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in current measurements and understanding, particularly regarding the critical density of the universe and the implications for its future behavior.

drew737
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Does the law of the conservation of energy apply to the light in our universe?
If yes, is our universe a closed system?
If no, is our universe losing energy?
 
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the conservation of energy applies everywhere.
As far as we know, since the way you "define" the universe is the region where the spacetime is defined, yes it is a closed system. If it was an open one, you'd be able to determine that loss of energy...
I think until now, everything works fine adiabatically
 
Global conservation of energy can't be defined for non-stationary systems like an expanding universe. However locally conservation of energy always applies.
 
Since this universe is a closed system of energy, is the universe expanding?
If yes, is the expansion rate increasing?
If no, does the universe have a finite mass/energy?
 
WannabeNewton said:
Global conservation of energy can't be defined for non-stationary systems like an expanding universe. However locally conservation of energy always applies.

Isn't the universe expanding adiabatically? If it does, there is no energy loss...
 
ChrisVer said:
Yes, the universe is expanding.
The expansion rate of the universe is increasing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerating_universe)

Since the universe is accelerating at an increasing rate, will we eventually have our own isolated/closed systems when the distance between galactic masses (bound by gravity) grows to an accelerated rate beyond the speed of light?
If yes, will our new system collapse into a singularity due to contraction?
If no, would we continually lose energy from light escaping into the void between what we can see and what we can't see (our old system)?
 
there is no matter speed greater than the speed of light, you should read the link I posted to understand what acceleration means.
What is the future of the Universe is still, if I recall well, an open question. Probably the universe will stop expanding one day and start collapsing, maybe it will keep expanding, maybe it never began and it will never cease to exist. But whatever the situation, I think we are around the critical level...
 
drew737 said:
Since the universe is accelerating at an increasing rate, will we eventually have our own isolated/closed systems when the distance between galactic masses (bound by gravity) grows to an accelerated rate beyond the speed of light?

In the model in which the universe remains dark-energy dominated forever, yes. However, although that is the current best-fit model, our measurements are not accurate enough to rule out other possibilities, such as an eventual recollapse.

drew737 said:
If yes, will our new system collase into a singularity due to contraction?

No. First, to an extremely good approximation, the large-scale expansion of the universe does not affect systems which are gravitationally bound on smaller scales, such as galaxies, solar systems, planets, or humans. The Usenet Physics FAQ has a good article on this (including a great Woody Allen quote):

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/GR/expanding_universe.html

Second, to the extent that the large-scale expansion of the universe does have any effect, it is to make small-scale systems *less* gravitationally bound, not more.

drew737 said:
If no, would we continually lose energy from light escaping into the void between what we can see and what we can't see (our old system)?

This is happening regardless of what the universe is doing on a large scale; any system which is at a temperature greater than that of the cosmic microwave background radiation (currently 2.7K) is losing energy, on net, to the universe. But the timescales involved are very long compared to ordinary timescales.

John Baez has a good article on the *really* long term fate of ordinary objects if the universe's expansion does continue to accelerate:

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/end.html
 
  • #10
ChrisVer said:
What is the future of the Universe is still, if I recall well, an open question. Probably the universe will stop expanding one day and start collapsing, maybe it will keep expanding, maybe it never began and it will never cease to exist. But whatever the situation, I think we are around the critical level...

It is still technically an open question, because our measurements are not accurate enough to tell for certain (because we are, as you say, very close to the critical density for the universe as a whole), but as I noted in my previous post, our current best-fit model says that the universe's expansion will continue to accelerate forever.
 
  • #11
drew737 said:
Does the law of the conservation of energy apply to the light in our universe?
If yes, is our universe a closed system?
If no, is our universe losing energy?

There's a recent thread that covers these questions and includes more good info and links:
Conservation of Energy in GR
 
  • #12
drew737 said:
Since this universe is a closed system of energy, is the universe expanding?
If yes, is the expansion rate increasing?
If no, does the universe have a finite mass/energy?
1. You assume facts not in evidence.
2. Irrelevant. The universe can expand at any rate it desires, regardless if it is finite or infinite.
3. Assuming the universe is finite, the answer is definitely yes.
 

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