Electromagnetism and the Pauli Exclusion Principle

[Cobul]

Electromagnetism in the atoms is why we can't pass through a bank vault. But supposed electromagnetism were canceled for an object, what would happen to the residual or remaining Pauli Exclusion principle? Would it still cause resistance to passing through the vault?

On a second scenerio, what would happen if the Pauli exclusion principle were canceled but electromagnetism remains, how would the atoms behave?

Worry not, i won't apply the principle to break bank vaults. Just understanding how they are involved to stability of atoms and molecules.

 

[berkeman]

But supposed electromagnetism were canceled for an object

What do you mean by this part? Can you give specific examples of what is canceled or stops working?

 

[anuttarasammyak]

I imagine if electromagnetism were cancelled, there would be no reason for the particles to form a bank vault.

 

[Cobul]

What do you mean by this part? Can you give specific examples of what is canceled or stops working?

I just want to know what would happen to an object if:

1. The electromagnetic force remains but there was no Pauli Exclusion Principle
2. The Pauli Exclusion Principle remains but no electromagnetic field

 

[256bits]

I imagine if electromagnetism were cancelled, there would be no reason for the particles to form a bank vault.

Yes. non-interacting I would think for the most extent.

 

[Cobul]

Yes. non-interacting I would think for the most extent.

For sake of understanding and thought experiment. If you say hit the bank vault with an anti-EM ray, and the electromagnetic field of the vault got cancelled. You will have masses spread all over like clouds? But when you put the electromagnetic field back together, would the molecules reform as vault or would it become just a mass of iron of different shapes?

Also about Pauli:

Pauli exclusion principle - Wikipedia

"It has been shown that the Pauli exclusion principle is responsible for the fact that ordinary bulk matter is stable and occupies volume. This suggestion was first made in 1931 by Paul Ehrenfest, who pointed out that the electrons of each atom cannot all fall into the lowest-energy orbital and must occupy successively larger shells. Atoms, therefore, occupy a volume and cannot be squeezed too closely together.[14]

A more rigorous proof was provided in 1967 by Freeman Dyson and Andrew Lenard (de), who considered the balance of attractive (electron–nuclear) and repulsive (electron–electron and nuclear–nuclear) forces and showed that ordinary matter would collapse and occupy a much smaller volume without the Pauli principle.[15][16]"

How much smaller volume? like Antman? or just 1/3 size reduction? But still stable matter?

 

[PeroK]

I just want to know what would happen to an object if:

1. The electromagnetic force remains but there was no Pauli Exclusion Principle
2. The Pauli Exclusion Principle remains but no electromagnetic field

Both are required to form atoms and have chemistry. As @anuttarasammyak says, without chemistry there are no objects.

 

[256bits]

would the molecules reform as vault or would it become just a mass of iron of different shapes?

Memory molecules?

This is kind of science fiction isn't it?
We have what we have and the results of a deviation (change) of any part of it lends a lot to speculation about unknown physics - unknown being that not of this world.

How much smaller volume? like Antman? or just 1/3 size reduction? But still stable matter?

The Earth does not collapse, like as you said about matter, but occupies a volume, even though gravity is attempting to force the atoms to a smaller space.

Here is someone's expose about fermions and the Pauli Exclusion Principle.
https://www.thoughtco.com/fermion-definition-in-physics-2699188

Stable matter?
A neutron star contains stable matter, but nothing like we are familiar with in our everyday lives.

 

[Cobul]

Memory molecules?

This is kind of science fiction isn't it?
We have what we have and the results of a deviation (change) of any part of it lends a lot to speculation about unknown physics - unknown being that not of this world.The Earth does not collapse, like as you said about matter, but occupies a volume, even though gravity is attempting to force the atoms to a smaller space.

Here is someone's expose about fermions and the Pauli Exclusion Principle.
https://www.thoughtco.com/fermion-definition-in-physics-2699188

Stable matter?
A neutron star contains stable matter, but nothing like we are familiar with in our everyday lives.

Neutron star, yeah.

What happens if atoms of iron or other elements were stripped of all electrons. Are there any natural naked atoms? If exposed to air, would there be explosion or implosion of air as all electrons from air is sucked by the naked iron or naked elements?

 

[anuttarasammyak]

Not fully naked but one or a few electrons depleted or added atoms are familiar and we call them ions. Soup of naked atom cores and freed electrons we call it plasma. You may easily find familiar examples of the both.

 

[Cobul]

Not fully naked but one or a few electrons depleted or added atoms are familiar and we call them ions. Soup of naked atom cores and freed electrons we call it plasma. You may easily find familiar examples of the both.

So hot temperature can separate atom cores and the electrons?

And if the electromagnetic field were nullified, you would have cold plasma?

Reminds me of dark matter. So in theory dark matter could be cold plasma or some kind of atom cores without any corresponding electrons?

 

[PeroK]

So in theory dark matter could be cold plasma or some kind of atom cores without any corresponding electrons?

That would be ordinary matter! Protons and neutrons.

 

[lomidrevo]

How much smaller volume? ... But still stable matter?

Stable matter?
A neutron star contains stable matter, but nothing like we are familiar with in our everyday lives.

If Pauli exclusion principle had not existed (as hypothesized in post #6), a neutron star would further collapse to a black hole. But generally speaking, it doesn't make sense to analyze this hypothetical scenarios, because as soon as you remove any natural law or principle, how can you know that other considered laws still hold true?

Not fully naked but one or a few electrons depleted or added atoms are familiar and we call them ions.

So hot temperature can separate atom cores and the electrons?

In stellar interiors, where nucleosynthesis is ongoing, the temperature is so high that basically all atoms are completely ionized.

 

[256bits]

If Pauli exclusion principle had not existed (as hypothesized in post #6), a neutron star would further collapse to a black hole. But generally speaking, it doesn't make sense to analyze this hypothetical scenarios, because as soon as you remove any natural law or principle, how can you know that other considered laws still hold true?

I think I said something similar in post #8
We have what we have and the results of a deviation (change) of any part of it lends a lot to speculation about unknown physics - unknown being that not of this world.

Your probably correct about the neutron star.

Yet we should acknowledge that matter does exist that does not obey the Pauli Exclusion principle
Fermions obey Pauli Exclusion.
Bosons do not.

 

[lomidrevo]

Yet we should acknowledge that matter does exist that does not obey the Pauli Exclusion principle
Fermions obey Pauli Exclusion.
Bosons do not.

The word "matter" is maybe not uniquely defined, but if we stick with standard model, all matter particles (quarks + leptons) are fermions.
https://home.cern/science/physics/standard-model