End of the World Predictions & Dates of Different Religions

[radagast]

Originally posted by Dark Wing
no way of questioning it shart of dying? why do you say that? and what makes you think that dying is a way to prove it true or false? again, i do not believe in heaven or hell as a place to go to, so loosing all knowledge that you even exsited and turning to dust is not exacly what i would see as proof of the bible or not. infact there are ways that you can prove the bible. through the method it tells you to test it, prophecy. if it says somthing is going to happen and it dosent, then hey, its wrong, yeah? and i know you can get into a debate about symbology concerning prophecy, but i am sorry, when it says the king of the north is going to be forced to come down, then it tells you that the king of the north is a joint venture of various named countries lead by whoever owns the top of Georgia then i say hey! maybe someone from the north lead by whoever own the top of georgia will come down to war! there is no sybology that's in the bible that is not explined within its self. there is no need for mystical 'meanings'. when it tells a story about a goat and a ram battling it out near a river, then tells you that the ram is persia and the goat is greese, i say the ram is persia and the goat is greese.

I certainly don't want to appear condescending, Dark Wing, nor am I one to normally speak of anothers spelling, since mine is atrocious. But your spelling is to the point where it is difficult for me to understand what you are saying. I'm sure you are simply writing fast and not proof-reading, but it is affecting your communication efficiency.

Owns the top of georgia? Uh, where did this come from?

If you don't believe in heaven or hell, then I do have to admit, your religious views would be more acceptable to me than most of christianity. But, without the whip of heaven and hell, why should I care anyway?

You accept the bible as evidence. I don't. At least not in any form or fashion that you do. (maybe an example of human nature) Since I don't accept it as evidence of anything... I guess you can where I'm going with this...

I figure if there is a god, he's either someone that wouldn't care if we believed in him in the first place, since he's given no hard evidence, or 2) He's a real bastard that I would rather spend eternity in hell (yes, I know you don't believe in it any more than I) avoiding rather than associate with.

With this type of philosophy about god, you may see why I proceed under the acceptance that I have no reason to believe he/she exists.

 

[Another God]

I believe the 'owns top of georgia' was just an arbitrarily chosen example of what a symbolic term may represent. So when there is a prophecy:
"the king of the north is going to be forced to come down"
And it explains that:
"the king of the north is a joint venture of various named countries lead by whoever owns the top of Georgia"
Then the meaning is obvious:
"someone from the north lead by whoever own the top of georgia will come down to war"
(I think DW left the word 'War' out of her prophecy part though...meh, whatever, I am sure you get the drift, and that's all that matters.)

You accept the bible as evidence. I don't. At least not in any form or fashion that you do.

This is the same main point of contention that I have with DW too radagast, and it still remains my main point.

She claims that her proof of the Bible being valuable evidence comes from it's prophetic power. I don't know what prophecies she is basing her current acceptance of it on though, as I mostly hear her talk about the 'Coming wars' or whatever in the middle east. Well, sure, more wars are coming the middle east (most likely), but they have been there forever, and chances are that they aremostly perpetuated by fundamentalists fulfilling their own beliefs in the prophecies.

But the fact is, these prophecies haven't been fulfilled, and yet DW believes the Bible now. So DW, give us an example of a prophecy which has been fullfilled already, which without doubt occurred after all of the Bible was put together (Anytime in the last 1900 years...one prophecy without ambiguity...shouldn't be too hard for a prophetic book should it?)

 

[radagast]

AG, there are certain prophecies that were fulfilled (the arrival of the savior of Isreal, jesus). The problem with that is, thru language and idiom analysis of some of the more original texts, much of the prophecy was written after the occurance of the event (specifically the king of isreal bit wasn't after the fact, but can be explained as a self-fulfilling prophecy).


Dark Wing, meaning no disrespect, but I am curious as to your background in ancient Hebrew and the ancient Hebrew culture. What kind of degrees do you have in this field?

 

[Another God]

Originally posted by radagast
AG, there are certain prophecies that were fulfilled (the arrival of the savior of Isreal, jesus). The problem with that is, thru language and idiom analysis of some of the more original texts, much of the prophecy was written after the occurance of the event (specifically the king of isreal bit wasn't after the fact, but can be explained as a self-fulfilling prophecy).

Not surprisingly, I have little faith in the jesus prophecy... If people look for something hard enough, they will find it wherever they look. (Thinks of Life Of Brian)

Dark Wing, meaning no disrespect, but I am curious as to your background in ancient Hebrew and the ancient Hebrew culture. What kind of degrees do you have in this field?

She has no degrees. I think you have mis-taken her in that respect. I thought this when we had that little stint about Authority. DW is claiming no attribute of authority, but rather offering : "Hey, if you look at the hebrew words, and translate them literally, the conclusions you have been spoonfed your whole lives may not be true."

I know that she has been raised to some extent with this approach to the bible, and so only has had a degree of experience through application. ie: Use lexicon, find literal translation of words, apply.

but don't take my word for it, I don't really know for sure. She'll be in here again sometime soon enough.

 

[kat]

Originally posted by radagast

While I understand your argument on ulterior motives with regard to control, that the early church(es) had for a specific translation, the fact that no major denomination (that I'm aware of) holds your translation, leads me to doubt you translation.

Her view is supported by the Universalist. For further clarification you should read "The Bible Hell" by J.W. Hanson (it is available in various places on the net) another excellent read that backs her view up is "The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment" by Thomas B. Thayer (also available on the net)

 

[Dark Wing]

You want specific prophecies given after the bible was completed, I shall give them to you. I can show you the prophesy of Ariel Sharon taking the city of Jerusalem back, I can show you the prediction of the dome of the rock being built on the temple site (this is a prediction telling you the year it will be done, for those of you who claim that you can never know dates for anything), I can show you the current dissection of the middle east into its current countries, and what is going to happen to them next. The next big chunk of "end of the world" prophecy (coming back momentarily to the thread topic) is in the middle of making now; I will post all of this up if you wish. Give me the weekend. I will sit down and write it out properly, and post it up. Then jump on me all you want, please show me I am wrong.

If you are not satisfied with this, I can find other ones as well; they are the more obvious ones off the top of my head. I will post them this weekend. Look out for them...

 

[Another God]

I can't wait.

 

[radagast]

Originally posted by Another God
She has no degrees. I think you have mis-taken her in that respect. I thought this when we had that little stint about Authority. DW is claiming no attribute of authority, but rather offering : "Hey, if you look at the hebrew words, and translate them literally, the conclusions you have been spoonfed your whole lives may not be true."

I know that she has been raised to some extent with this approach to the bible, and so only has had a degree of experience through application. ie: Use lexicon, find literal translation of words, apply.

but don't take my word for it, I don't really know for sure. She'll be in here again sometime soon enough.

But without a really good knowledge of both ancient hebrew culture and serious knowledge of idiomatic usage in ancient hebrew, there is no way to say the information she is arriving at bears any resemblence to the meaning when it was written.

Hell, if I directly translated "Throw a few shrimps on the barbie" using a standard english dictionary, but no knowledge of Aussie idioms, I would come to the conclusion that they were tossing either small people or small crustaceans onto a small doll. Knowledge of culture and idiomatic usage is as important as a translation of the words. Directly translating the phrase "He was bad, man!" would give you a completely opposite meaning depending on it's usage.

Dark Wing, if you haven't considered the things I've mentioned above, and do not plan on doing so, then I cannot help but conclude that there are subconscious motivations for getting the answers you're getting, which have nothing to do with getting the correct answers. Humans are notorious for indulging in self-delusion, when it supports an ego-driven goal. We are all subject to it. You can find courses in ancient hebrew and ancient hebrew culture, that don't go so far as to try and intrepret scripture for you. Please consider it, if you are striving for accuracy.

For an amusing look at interpretation via dictionary look at
http://www.engrish.com.

 

[FZ+]

And I'll be waiting with the list of biblical prophecies that didn't turn out right.

 

[Another God]

Originally posted by FZ+
And I'll be waiting with the list of biblical prophecies that didn't turn out right.

Haha, LOL. Hmmmm
This will be interesting. I think this is worth a new thread: Battle of the prophecies.
True prophecy, followed by false prophecy. Each prophecy posted must be explained and justified as being true/false before moving onto the counter example.

FZ, do you think you can handle the role of the 'Negative Team' in this battle? Or do you have a better recomendation?

Dark Wing: Do you think you could make it into PF often enough to fight this battle?

 

[FZ+]

I think I have built up a more than adequate collection... Mwhahaha...