The discussion centers around the uniqueness of the English language as articulated by linguist John McWhorter, particularly in relation to its differences from other languages and its historical development. Participants explore various aspects of English, including its borrowing from other languages, its dialects, and the implications of its evolution over time.
Participants do not reach a consensus on the classification of Scots or the uniqueness of English compared to other languages. Multiple competing views remain regarding the nature of English and its relationship to other languages.
There are unresolved questions about the definitions of dialects versus languages, particularly in the context of Scots and Gaelic. Participants express varying degrees of familiarity with different languages and their complexities, which may influence their perspectives.
This discussion may be of interest to linguists, language enthusiasts, and those curious about the historical and cultural influences on the English language.
English doesn't have a particularly high borrowing rate when compared to languages globally. There are languages like Armenian for which the borrowing rate is much, much higher.Nik_2213 said:Can we simply say that English is just an inherently 'Acquisitive' language ?? Something to do with sundry invasions, then ocean-spanning shipping and Empire...
I'm not really sure what you mean. English accepts words into its vocabulary like other languages. I'm not sure what "returning" a word would be. It's no different from any other language.Vanadium 50 said:"Borrow" implies "return". English "borrows" like the mafia "borrows".
I don't follow. Loanword or borrowing are the common terms in linguistics.Vanadium 50 said:The point is that "borrowing" is not really what happens.
Clone seems more logical but I am not a linguist.Vanadium 50 said:The point is that "borrowing" is not really what happens.
I read the word "read" that was in red.jedishrfu said:Please write after me that right makes wright.
That may be so, but English has "borrowed" words from many different sources. A partial list might include Norman French (pork, beef, garage), Italian (stucco, alto, adagio), German (strafe, angst, alpenglow), Russian (taiga, steppe), Persian (kiosk, bazaar, carafe), Hindi or Urdu (jungle, bandana, dinghy), Malay (amok, bamboo), Hawaiian (luau, lanai), Eskimo/Aleut (kayak, anorak), various U.S. Indian tribes (raccoon, opossum, chinook).LittleSchwinger said:English doesn't have a particularly high borrowing rate when compared to languages globally.
More "taking" rather than "borrowing." That was V50's point.LittleSchwinger said:borrowing are the common terms in linguistics.
Certainly. So have many languages. It's not that different from other languages in that regard. A similar list as the one you produced can be given for languages from Welsh to Chinese.Mark44 said:That may be so, but English has "borrowed" words from many different sources
I'm not sure exactly what you mean. If you mean some of the words originally come from languages in areas that Anglophones colonised, that's only a small proportion of borrowings in English. Many other languages have such "taken" words, again English isn't unusual in that regard. In fact there are languages where such "taken" words are a larger portion of their vocabulary.Mark44 said:More "taking" rather than "borrowing." That was V50's point.
V50's point about "borrowed" was that when you borrow something, the implication is that you're going to give it back. Words that were "borrowed" by English aren't usually returned. That's all that was meant.LittleSchwinger said:I'm not sure exactly what you mean. If you mean some of the words originally come from languages in areas that Anglophones colonised, that's only a small proportion of borrowings in English.
But that's true for every borrowing in every language. What would "returning a word" even mean?Mark44 said:V50's point about "borrowed" was that when you borrow something, the implication is that you're going to give it back. Words that were "borrowed" by English aren't usually returned. That's all that was meant.
Again, V50's only point is that "borrow" is not the appropriate word.LittleSchwinger said:But that's true for every borrowing in every language. What would "returning a word" even mean?
Borrow also means "to adapt or use as one's own". Like "to borrow a metaphor". That's the meaning when it's used as a technical term in linguistics. Seems fine to me.Mark44 said:Again, V50's only point is that "borrow" is not the appropriate word.
I'm not sure that's true. How many Algonquin words are there in either Welsh or Mandarin? How many Malay words are there in Portuguese? How many Swahili words are in Mongolian? English has Algonquin (and many other North American Indian words), plus Malay words as well as Swahili.LittleSchwinger said:A similar list as the one you produced can be given for languages from Welsh to Chinese.
Are you asking if the specific ratio of borrowings from various languages are the same in other languages as they are in English? That won't be true between any two languages. However most languages have a similarly broad source of borrowings, English is not unusual in that regard.Mark44 said:I'm not sure that's true. How many Algonquin words are there in either Welsh or Mandarin? How many Malay words are there in Portuguese? How many Swahili words are in Mongolian? English has Algonquin (and many other North American Indian words), plus Malay words as well as Swahili.
What I'm saying is that I believe the list is longer in English than in many or most other languages, in part because of the expanse of the British Empire (on which it was said that "the sun never sets"), but also words from Arabic by way of the Spaniards who came to the New World, not to mention the waves of European immigrants who came here from the 18th Century to the early 20th Century. Your example of Ukrainian lists words from peoples from more-or-less nearby areas, such as the Mongols who swept through the plains of Ukraine and beyond. There are hardly any world languages that haven't contributed at least a few words to English.LittleSchwinger said:Are you asking if the specific ratio of borrowings from various languages are the same in other languages as they are in English? That won't be true between any two languages. However most languages have a similarly broad source of borrowings, English is not unusual in that regard.
Williams, Joseph M. (1986). Origins of the English Language: A Social and Linguistic History gives the vocabulary of English as:Mark44 said:What I'm saying is that I believe the list is longer in English than in many or most other languages
That's not really different from English per the above. Borrowings are mostly from nearby languages, with a smaller amount from other languages further afield. If you list out all sources the contributions are just as wide as English, but the ratios are different with the highest ratios from close languages. Just as in the case of English.Mark44 said:Your example of Ukrainian lists words from peoples from more-or-less nearby areas, such as the Mongols who swept through the plains of Ukraine and beyond.
Well that's what I'm talking about, when you actually analyse it as linguists have English is pretty normal.jedishrfu said:Do you think we can all agree to get back to the essence of this thread?
The Second Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary, of 1989, counts 600,000 words. The 6% of "other languages" makes up about 36,000 words.LittleSchwinger said:All other languages across the world contribute about 6%.
I'm not talking about words borrowed from nearby languages -- I'm talking about words from countries far away from the Anglosphere -- including words from Asia, Africa, and elsewhere.LittleSchwinger said:So English also mostly borrowed from nearby languages, namely Latin, Old French and Greek.
Fewer than half of the 16 languages listed above could be counted as "nearby" languages.Loanwords make up 80% of English
What this means is that there is no such thing as pure English. English is a delectable, slow-cooked language of languages. As lexicographer Kory Stamper explains, “English has been borrowing words from other languages since its infancy.” As many as 350 other languages are represented and their linguistic contributions actually make up about 80% of English!
Ranking from most influential to least, English is composed of words from: Latin, French, German, Italian, Spanish, Dutch, Scandinavian, Japanese, Arabic, Portuguese, Sanskrit, Russian, Maori, Hindi, Hebrew, Persian, Malay, Urdu, Irish, Afrikaans, Yiddish, Chinese, Turkish, Norwegian, Zulu, and Swahili. And, that’s not even 10% of the 350 languages in the English melting pot.
Which is whether English is or is not a "normal language." I maintain that because of the plethora of borrowed words, it is not.jedishrfu said:Do you think we can all agree to get back to the essence of this thread?
I understand. I'm saying that in total English has about 6% of its words, as per the monograph above, consisting of borrowings from such far away languages. This isn't that unusual. Take Japanese. 8% of its words are directly taken from such distant languages (金田一京, ed. (2001). 新選国語辞典. 小学館) and another 6% come from hybridising between such borrowings from distant languages (same source).Mark44 said:I'm not talking about words borrowed from nearby languages -- I'm talking about words from countries far away from the Anglosphere -- including words from Asia, Africa, and elsewhere.