Equivalence of Completeness Properties

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the equivalence of various completeness properties in real analysis, specifically focusing on the relationship between the Nested Intervals Theorem and the Monotone Convergence Theorem. Participants explore how to prove the Monotone Convergence Theorem using the Nested Intervals Theorem without relying on other completeness properties.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant outlines the completeness properties and states a need to prove the Monotone Convergence Theorem using the Nested Intervals Theorem.
  • Another participant suggests using a bounded increasing sequence to create a nested sequence of intervals, but emphasizes not to use the least upper bound property.
  • There is a reiteration of the need to prove the implication from the Nested Intervals Theorem to the Monotone Convergence Theorem without using other properties.
  • A participant proposes an alternative approach to prove that the Nested Intervals Theorem implies the convergence of Cauchy sequences by constructing nested intervals whose lengths approach zero.
  • One participant expresses a desire for a more direct approach but acknowledges that proving the implication from the Nested Intervals Theorem to the convergence of Cauchy sequences would suffice.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the need to establish the relationship between the Nested Intervals Theorem and the Monotone Convergence Theorem. However, there is no consensus on the best approach to take, and multiple strategies are proposed without agreement on a single method.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty about how to construct nested intervals for Cauchy sequences that are not necessarily monotonic. The discussion reflects varying assumptions about the use of completeness properties and their interrelations.

3.1415926535
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The completeness properties are 1)The least upper bound property, 2)The Nested Intervals Theorem, 3)The Monotone Convergence Theorem, 4)The Bolzano Weierstrass, 5) The convergence of every Cauchy sequence.

I can show 1→2 and 1→3→4→5→1 All I need to prove is 2→3

I therefore need the proof of the Monotone Convergence Theorem using Nested intervals Theorem

The theorems: Nested Interval Theorem(NIT): If I_{n}=\left [ a_{n},b_{n} \right ] andI_{1}\supseteq I_{2}\supseteq I_{3}\supseteq... then \bigcap_{n=1}^{\infty}I_{n}\neq \varnothing In addition if b_{n}-a_{n}\rightarrow 0 as n \to \infty then \bigcap_{n=1}^{\infty}I_{n} consists of a single point.

Monotone Convergence Theorem(MCN): If a_{n} is a monotone and bounded sequence of real numbers then a_{n} converges.
 
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Here's an approach you could try. Let an be a bounded increasing sequence, which means that the sequence has an upper bound b. Then ([an,b]) is a nested sequence of ntervals. Can you take it from here, using properties 1 and 2 to prove 3? And then you can do the analogous thing for bounded decreasing sequences.
 
lugita15 said:
Here's an approach you could try. Let an be a bounded increasing sequence, which means that the sequence has an upper bound b. Then ([an,b]) is a nested sequence of ntervals. Can you take it from here, using properties 1 and 2 to prove 3? And then you can do the analogous thing for bounded decreasing sequences.

If by property 1 you mean the least upper bound property the point here is not to use it!
I want a proof 2-3 without using 1,3,4,5
 
3.1415926535 said:
If by property 1 you mean the least upper bound property the point here is not to use it!
I want a proof 2-3 without using 1,3,4,5
Yes, sorry. I think you may still be able use my suggestion to prove 2 implies 3 without using 1,4, or 5.

On a separate note, you can try proving 2 implies 5 instead (because you've already proven that 1,3,4, and 5 are equivalent, so the fact that 1 implies 2 and 2 implies 5 means that 2 is equivalent to the rest). One simple strategy is to try constructing a nested sequence of intervals whose lengths go to zero using the elements of a Cauchy sequence.
 
Last edited:
lugita15 said:
Yes, sorry. I think you may still be able use my suggestion to prove 2 implies 3 without using 1,4, or 5.

On a separate note, you can try proving 2 implies 5 instead (because you've already proven that 1,3,4, and 5 are equivalent, so the fact that 1 implies 2 and 2 implies 5 means that 2 is equivalent to the rest). One simple strategy is to try constructing a nested sequence of intervals whose lengths go to zero using the elements of a Cauchy sequence.

Even though I would like a more direct approach 2-5 will suffice.
Suppose that I want to prove that a Cauchy sequence x_n converges
How can I create a sequence of nested intervals whose lengths go to 0 when x_n is not necessarily monotonous?
 
3.1415926535 said:
Even though I would like a more direct approach 2-5 will suffice.
Suppose that I want to prove that a Cauchy sequence x_n converges
How can I create a sequence of nested intervals whose lengths go to 0 when x_n is not necessarily monotonous?
It's really quite simple. For convenience, I'll refer to half the length of an interval as it's "radius". Since (x_n) is Cauchy, there exists an x_n1 such that all subsequent elements of the sequence are within an interval I1 of radius r1=1/2 centered at x_n1. And there exists an n2>n1 such that all subsequent elements of the sequence are within an interval I2 centered at x_n2, which is within I1 and has radius r2<1/4. And there exists an n3>n2 such that all subsequent elements are within an interval I3 centered at x_n3, which is within I2 and has radius r3<1/8. I think you get the picture: we have a nested sequence (In) of intervals, with radii rn→0 as n→∞.
 

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