Error Analysis: Solving 2a^2 + b^2 with Uncertainty (a=6.0+/-0.1, b=17.5+/-0.3)

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the calculation of the expression 2a² + b² given the values a = (6.0 ± 0.1) and b = (17.5 ± 0.3). Participants explore methods for error analysis and uncertainty propagation in this context, seeking clarity on the correct approach to arrive at a solution.

Discussion Character

  • Homework-related
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about how to correctly compute 2a² + b² and seeks assistance, indicating they have tried a method but are unsure of their results.
  • Another participant suggests that the initial approach seems correct and proposes showing the arithmetic to facilitate further help.
  • There is mention of using an approximate formula for squaring uncertainties, specifically (x ± y)² = (x²) ± (2xy), rather than the exact formula.
  • A participant calculates the maximum and minimum possible values for the expression based on the uncertainties, providing specific numerical results for both cases.
  • Another participant points out a numerical error in the previous calculations, correcting the smallest possible value of the expression.
  • Discussion includes alternative methods for estimating uncertainty, such as using differentials and a "rule of thumb" regarding error propagation in addition and multiplication.
  • There is a correction regarding the exact value of the expression based on the values of a and b, with a participant emphasizing the importance of accuracy in these calculations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the correct approach or final answer, as multiple methods and interpretations of error propagation are discussed, leading to differing results and corrections.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty regarding the application of formulas for error propagation and the implications of using approximate versus exact methods. There are also unresolved numerical discrepancies in the calculations presented.

neoking77
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given that a=(6.0+/-0.1) and b=(17.5+/-0.3)

what is 2a^2 + b^2

i'm having so much trouble with this
i think we first go (6.0+/-0.1)^2 then times it by 2, and add (17.5+/-0.3)^2...i tried this but couldn't get the right answer...what am i doing wrong?
...ANY help would be greatly appreciated...i feel if someone will help me with just this question i can figure out how to do the rest. thank you in advance!
 
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whats the answer?
 
neoking77 said:
i think we first go (6.0+/-0.1)^2 then times it by 2, and add (17.5+/-0.3)^2...i tried this but couldn't get the right answer...what am i doing wrong?

That seems like the right idea.

If you show us your arithmetic and tell us what the "right" answer is supposed to be, somebody can probably help you more.

I wonder if you wre supposed to use the approximate formula

(x +/- y)^2 = (x^2) +/- (2xy)

not the exact formula

(x +/- y)2 = (x^2+y^2) +/- (2xy)
 
AlephZero said:
That seems like the right idea.

If you show us your arithmetic and tell us what the "right" answer is supposed to be, somebody can probably help you more.

I wonder if you wre supposed to use the approximate formula

(x +/- y)^2 = (x^2) +/- (2xy)

not the exact formula

(x +/- y)2 = (x^2+y^2) +/- (2xy)
when multiplying or adding quantities with small uncertainties, add uncertainties. i think.
 
neoking77 said:
given that a=(6.0+/-0.1) and b=(17.5+/-0.3)

what is 2a^2 + b^2

i'm having so much trouble with this
i think we first go (6.0+/-0.1)^2 then times it by 2, and add (17.5+/-0.3)^2...i tried this but couldn't get the right answer...what am i doing wrong?
...ANY help would be greatly appreciated...i feel if someone will help me with just this question i can figure out how to do the rest. thank you in advance!

I'm not sure what you mean by (6.0+/-0.1)^2. I presume you mean that you make two calculations: The largest that 6.0+/- 0.1 can be is, of course, 6.1. 6.12= 37.21 and 2 times that is 74.42. The largest that 17.5+/-0.3 can be is 17.8. 17.82= 316.84. Since we are adding positive numbers (you have to be careful about that) the largest possible value of 2a2+ b2 is 391.26.

Similarly, the smallest possible value of 6.0+/-0.1 is 5.9. Using that value for a, 2a2= 2(5.9)2 is 69.62. The smallest possible value of 17.5+/-0.3 is 17.2. Its square is 295.84. The smallest possible value of 2a2+ b2 is the sum of those: 356.46.

That is, if a= 6.0+/-0.1 and b= 17.5+/-0.3, then 2a2+ b2 can lie any where between 356.46 and 391.26. You will notice that the value 2(62)+ 17.52= 378.25 is between those but not exactly in the middle: the midpoint of the interval is (391.26+ 356.46)/2= 373.86.

To write that in the form x+/- d, we can do either of two things:
(1)take the midpoint of the interval, 373.86 and, since 373.86- 356.46= 391.20-373.86= 17.4, the value is 373.86+/-17.4 or
(2)take the value given by 6.0 and 17.5, 376.25 and noting that 391.26- 376.25= 15.01 and 376.25-356.46= 19.79 (the interval is not symmetric about that value), use the larger of those, 19.79, to be sure we are inside the interval: 376.25+/-19.79.
The latter is typically easier to calculate but allows for a larger "error" than necessary.

We could also approximate as follows: if f= 2a2+ b2, then, differentiating, df= 4ada+ 2bdb. "df", the differential, is not exactly the "error" but if the error is small, they are close. Here, df= 4(6.0)(0.1)+ 2(17.5)(0.3)= 12.9 giving 376.25+/- 12.9 as the estimate.

There is an engineering "rule of thumb" that "When quantities add, the errors add. When quantities multiply, the relative errors add."
Specifically, d(a+ b)= da+ db so the "errors add"
d(ab)= bda+ adb and, dividing by ab, d(ab)/ab= da/a+ db/b. da/a and db/b are, of course, the "relative errors".
 
HallsofIvy said:
Similarly, the smallest possible value of 6.0+/-0.1 is 5.9. Using that value for a, 2a2= 2(5.9)2 is 69.62. The smallest possible value of 17.5+/-0.3 is 17.2. Its square is 295.84. The smallest possible value of 2a2+ b2 is the sum of those: 356.46.

It's 365.46; you reversed the digits. I'll choose to let neoking77 fix any errors that have propagated with that one -- it's his problem, after all.
 
HallsofIvy; (2)take the value given by 6.0 and 17.5 said:
Exact value with 6 and 17.5 is 378.25
 

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