Euler Lagrange equation of motion

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the application of the Euler-Lagrange equation in a system characterized by a generalized coordinate, x, where the potential energy involves the absolute value of x. Participants explore the implications of the undefined derivative at x=0 and the physical interpretations of the system's behavior in this context.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that the partial derivative of the Lagrangian with respect to x becomes undefined at x=0, questioning how to proceed with the Euler-Lagrange differential equation.
  • Another participant suggests that the Weierstrass-Erdmann Corner Condition may be relevant for handling the corner case at x=0.
  • A different participant asserts that the undefined derivative implies the system may "explode" at x=0, indicating a potential issue with the validity of the Lagrangian in that region.
  • There is a suggestion that x=0 might be outside the valid range of the Lagrangian, prompting questions about the nature of the potential energy function involved.
  • One participant raises the idea of treating the solution as a piecewise function, with separate considerations for x>0, x<0, and x=0.
  • Another participant agrees that the system behaves like a singularity at x=0, indicating a lack of a solution in that specific case.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on how to handle the undefined derivative at x=0, with some proposing the use of piecewise solutions while others emphasize the implications of a singularity. No consensus is reached regarding the best approach to take.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the limitations of the Lagrangian's applicability at x=0 and the potential need for additional information to fully resolve the situation.

skate_nerd
Messages
174
Reaction score
0
I have a system with one generalized coordinate, x. In the potential energy part of the lagrangian, I have some constants multiplied by the absolute value of x. That is the only x dependence the lagrangian has, so when I take the partial derivative of the lagrangian with respect to x (to get the euler lagrange differential equation), I get a derivative that is undefined at x=0. Is there anything that I am supposed to do about this? Or do I just leave the derivative (x/|x|) and go on with writing the diff. eq?

Also, let it be known that x is a function of t (x(t)).
I think this may change things but I'm not sure. Why would the partial x derivative of |x(t)| be any different then the direct x derivative of |x(t)|?
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
Well, you'll need to treat the corner carefully. The Weierstrass-Erdmann Corner Condition might be useful. Otherwise, I would proceed with the usual calculations.

$x$ is always $x(t)$. You don't need to worry about $t$ showing up in the Lagrangian if it's inside the function $x$.
 
skatenerd said:
when I take the partial derivative of the lagrangian with respect to x (to get the euler lagrange differential equation), I get a derivative that is undefined at x=0. Is there anything that I am supposed to do about this? Or do I just leave the derivative (x/|x|) and go on with writing the diff. eq?

It means that your system explodes if it passes through x=0.

Physically that is not possible, so that suggests there is something special going on with your lagrangian.
Perhaps x=0 is outside of the range in which your lagrangian is valid?
Where is this step function coming from?

Something like that might happen if you model the gravity of an object with mass M with $$V=-\frac {GM}{x}$$.
It is only valid if you are outside the object.
 
Thanks for the responses Ackbach + I Like Serena.
@I Like Serena, you're saying I have a step function, so do I need to treat my whole solution like one? With two specific solutions, one for x>0 and x<0, and one for x=0?
 
skatenerd said:
Thanks for the responses Ackbach + I Like Serena.
@I Like Serena, you're saying I have a step function, so do I need to treat my whole solution like one? With two specific solutions, one for x>0 and x<0, and one for x=0?

Looks like it.
Presumably you won't have a solution for x=0 other than that the system behaves like a singularity in space and time.
Can't really say much more without more information.
 
Thanks. I think that's probably all I'll need to know. I've got the info.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
1K
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
4K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
3K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
6K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K