Euler vs. Lagrange: Non-Holonomic Friction & Hamilton's Equations

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around the differences between Euler and Lagrange equations, particularly in the context of non-holonomic systems involving friction. Participants are exploring the setup of Lagrange equations when faced with non-holonomic constraints and the distinctions between various derivatives in Hamilton's equations.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification, Assumption checking, Mixed

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants are attempting to clarify the application of Euler and Lagrange equations, particularly in relation to non-holonomic constraints and friction. Questions about the nature of derivatives in Hamilton's equations and the meaning of variational notation are also raised.

Discussion Status

Some participants are providing insights into the definitions and applications of the equations in question. There is an acknowledgment of confusion regarding the original questions, and attempts to clarify the concepts are ongoing. No explicit consensus has been reached, but guidance on the nature of variational notation has been offered.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that non-holonomic constraints are complex and often require specific modeling approaches. The original poster expresses a need for a deeper understanding rather than direct problem-solving assistance.

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Homework Statement



The difference between the Euler and Lagrange equations and when to use each.
How to set up Lagrange when the energies are non-holonomic such as friction.
What is the difference between curly delta and plain derivative, eg Hamilton's equation

Homework Equations


Euler's equation vs. Lagrange equation and Hamilton's equation

The Attempt at a Solution


These are general conceptual questions. Please see the attached sheet for more detail. I just need a little more understanding rather than help on a specific problem. Links to sites giving more detailed explanations would be greatly appreciated.[/B]
 

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1) The equation is called the Euler-Lagrange equation - your question doesn't make much sense, unless you're referring to Euler's Equations in the context of rotating reference frames.

2) Non-holonomic constraints are a very advanced subject actually, and generally you can't deal with them. With friction, you have to come up with some model, but often \vec{F} = -|\dot{\vec{r}}|^{\alpha}\hat{r} is a good approximation.

3) The total derivative of a function is defined in terms of partial derivatives. Example:

\frac{df(x,y,z,t)}{dt} = \frac{\partial f(x,y,z,t)}{\partial x}\frac{\partial x}{\partial t} + \frac{\partial f(x,y,z,t)}{\partial y}\frac{\partial y}{\partial t} + \frac{\partial f(x,y,z,t)}{\partial z}\frac{\partial z}{\partial t} + \frac{\partial f(x,y,z,t)}{\partial t}
 
Thanks for your response. It turned out I was so confused that I did not state the questions correctly. Please see attachment for answers which will clear up the confused questions.
 

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I can comment on the last question: What it says there is that q(t) is the function that minimizes the action integral.
So you are not looking for a variable value that minimizes something, for which you use a differential (usually indicated with a ##d##), but for a path from t1 to t2 for which you use this variational notation ##\delta##
 

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