Expansion and raisin bread

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    Expansion of the universe
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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the metaphor of raisin bread used to explain the expansion of the universe in cosmology. Participants explore the implications of this analogy, particularly regarding the behavior of galaxies and the role of gravity in the context of cosmic expansion.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses skepticism about the raisin bread analogy, questioning why the raisins wouldn't be distorted if the dough expands.
  • Another participant defends the analogy, stating that galaxies, which are bound by gravity, do not expand, thus the raisins remaining unchanged is acceptable.
  • A different participant inquires about the specific role of gravity, including visible and dark matter, in counteracting expansion and seeks further mathematical context beyond general relativity.
  • Another participant emphasizes that the expansion of the universe is not a force acting on galaxies but rather a result of their inertial motion influenced by spacetime curvature and mutual gravitational attraction.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit differing views on the effectiveness of the raisin bread analogy and its implications for understanding cosmic expansion. There is no consensus on the best way to conceptualize these ideas.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note confusion regarding forum functionalities and thread templates, which may distract from the main discussion.

John Helly
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TL;DR
What about the raisins?
Fascinated as I am of learning about cosmology, one metaphor seems particularly strained: the raisin bread metaphor for expansion. I get the notion of the dough expanding and how this accounts for the speed differential of the galaxies relative to each other; but what about the raisins? Shouldn't they be distorted into plums or dates; maybe bananas?
 
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The raisin bread, like all analogies, suffers many ills. But this ain't one of those.
In an expanding universe structures bound by gravity - like galaxies - don't expand. So the raisins staying the same as the bread raises in the oven is actually ok.

You've referenced an empty thread template, btw.
 
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Sorry about the thread. I get confused by all the options and conventions yet to be discovered. Hoping a reply to this doesn't make it worse.

What is it about gravity, presumably due to visible and dark matter, that exactly negates the expansion? Is there a thread you can suggest to the math underlying this compensatory mechanism (narrower than just GR; which I'm still trying to learn)?Mahalo.

Source: https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/expansion-and-raisin-bread.1083760/
 
Don't read too much into an analogy.

The expansion isn't a force pulling at galaxies and trying to stretch them - the galaxies are all moving inertially according to Newton's first law, just complicated by the curvature of spacetime. Individual galaxies and clusters are held together by their own gravity - they have stopped themselves from moving apart.

It's not radically different from two objects initially at rest in space falling towards each other because of their mutual gravitational attraction.
 
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Bandersnatch said:
You've referenced an empty thread template, btw.
I've seen this a few times. I think it might be a bug with the new thread page, or something like that.
 
Bandersnatch said:
You've referenced an empty thread template, btw.
It's a forum bug, reference now deleted.
 

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