Experiences with entry-level bench equipment manufacturers

[theycallmevirgo]

TL;DR

When was the last time you purchased a scope, DMM, PSU, or signal generator for under $500? How was the support experience?

I'm going to finish building my bench in the next 6 months or so, and form what I can tell, there are at least 2 manufacturers that will sell me all 4 units (scope, DMM, PSU, and function generator) - Rigol and Siglent. I have less than zero interest in buying units from different manufacturers - I want to build a strategic relationship, and they're going to pay more attention to a $1k-$2k customer than an $250 customer. My primary concern is how responsive their tech support is, or barring that what kind of individual experiences people have had with them. For $250 I obvioulsy don't expect someone to show up at my door and give me lessons, but I want to know that they take responsibility if something goes wrong.

Many thanks in advance for any help

Joe

 

[Windadct]

So .. I graduated with an Be-EE in 84.. the amount of good tech you can buy today for the money is insane.

For the budget ether brand is fine.

My honest feedback is ... a < $ 10K or even $100K customer is not really going to build any "strategic relationship"

Honestly - the reliability of electronics today is so good, "if something goes wrong" it is most likely your fault. To correct it you will need to pay.

 

[sophiecentaur]

I want to build a strategic relationship, and they're going to pay more attention to a $1k-$2k customer than an $250 customer.

I am very aware of how uninterested suppliers of astronomy equipment can be, these days. It's probably a bit more niche than everyday electronics hobby stuff but suppliers are very often little more than box shifters. They often know less than you do, after your first few months of experience.

Support? Perhaps a replacement unit if you make a massive fuss. The supplier may be important to you but you cannot rely on your relationship with them to be "strategic" unless your business in is several thousands of quid on a regular basis.

I'd be inclined to buy second hand and cheap off eBay and throw away the failures. Most second hand stuff has hardly been used and you can easily spot wear and dirt on a scope controls.

I kitted myself out with some useful entry level machine tools and the only new one I bought was a mini lathe. The rest (Milling machine, bandsaw, MIG welder, drill press etc.) has been second hand at knock down prices from local sellers.

I know that buying new gives us a buzz but you can save yourself such a lot by doing a spot of wheeler dealing.

 

[theycallmevirgo]

I know that buying new gives us a buzz but you can save yourself such a lot by doing a spot of wheeler dealing.

Yeah, many thanks but there's no way I'm going the ebay route. Everything I buy is going to be under manufacturer warranty and extended dealer warranty where available, because I plan to use it to make money.

 

[sophiecentaur]

Yeah, many thanks but there's no way I'm going the ebay route. Everything I buy is going to be under manufacturer warranty and extended dealer warranty where available, because I plan to use it to make money.

Fair enough. It's a matter of personal judgement. Good luck with your business.

As for Warrantees, none of my domestic kit (TV etc.) or white goods have failed within their warrantee periods. First repair this year after thirteen years of owning a Miele washing machine, for instance. The insurance companies are happy enough to take your money and they so seldom need to pay out. Seriously though, once you have a reasonable amount of kit, you can afford to underwrite your own losses if you can afford to replace just one device every two or three years (but you could probably mend it anyway). Less outlay than extended warrantees. Big companies never use them.

 

[theycallmevirgo]

As for Warrantees, none of my domestic kit (TV etc.) or white goods have failed within their warrantee periods.

And that's exactly my point. I've done a fair amount of reading in PLM (product lifecycle management) and the point of a warranty is not to get the manufacturer to replace the unit, it's to tell you when you have to replace the unit. If manufacturers were doing warranty replacements all the time, there's no way they'd have a profitable business.

 

[Vanadium 50]

and they're going to pay more attention to a $1k-$2k customer than an $250 customer

While mathematically correct, in reality neither customer is really the vendor's target.

FWIW, I have a Fluke 77 I bought ~15 years ago. Only problem was that batteries sometimes need to be replaced.

 

[theycallmevirgo]

While mathematically correct, in reality neither customer is really the vendor's target.

FWIW, I have a Fluke 77 I bought ~15 years ago. Only problem was that batteries sometimes need to be replaced.

Yes, we would all buy Fluke if we could afford it. That's like saying I'd prefer to eat filet mignon 7 days a week.

 

[Windadct]

Professional tools, professional price...

 

[theycallmevirgo]

Professional tools, professional price...

OK, fair enough. What is a "professional price"? What are minimum specs in your estimation for "professional" units? Why?

I'm not being sarcastic, I'm asking in good faith. If I'm better off waiting a few months and spending more, that's what I'll do.

 

[Windadct]

HA, well to start with is the spec:

Scope - min basic (pro) spec may be 4 channel, 200Mhz, and the LOW end of this is $1000, high end is $6 ot 8K, $50K scopes are not unusual.

You have to define what YOU need.

 

[theycallmevirgo]

OK, again - not trying to be sarcastic, but - what kind of work, specifically, will I be able to do with a 200Mhz scope that I would not be able to do with a 100Mhz scope? Or a 50MHhz scope?

When you say, " You have to define what YOU need " I clearly don't have enough info to define what I need.

 

[DaveE]

And that's exactly my point. I've done a fair amount of reading in PLM (product lifecycle management) and the point of a warranty is not to get the manufacturer to replace the unit, it's to tell you when you have to replace the unit. If manufacturers were doing warranty replacements all the time, there's no way they'd have a profitable business.

Nearly every piece of electronic test equipment I used in my 30 year EE career worked well way beyond it's warrantee period. The point of the warrantee is primarily to replace infant failures.

 

[theycallmevirgo]

Nearly every piece of electronic test equipment I used in my 30 year EE career worked well way beyond it's warrantee period. The point of the warrantee is primarily to replace infant failures.

Would you care to weigh in on Windadct's comments?

 

[DaveE]

Would you care to weigh in on Windadct's comments?

Um what? Which comment? I guess if I did I would have, maybe. Do you have a question?

My take on this whole thread is: buy what you think will fit your needs. Cheap Chinese stuff is great for the sort of things that it's great for. The DVM I use most often at home cost about $10, it almost always does what I need, but I also know when to get the good ones out. OTOH, there's a reason Keysight, Tektronix, Fluke, Rohde & Schwarz, Le Croy, etc. are still in business.

Some of this depends on to what extent are you confident in your ability to verify measurements (i.e. calibrations, sanity checks, general skepticism, etc.) so that you will know if your instrument isn't doing what you expected. Also knowing the limitations of any piece of equipment, no matter how much you paid for it. For example, your $80K network analyzer may be a POS when it comes to measuring the loop gain of your SMPS. There are $10K instruments targeted at that application that will work much better. That neurosurgeon may be paid really well, but that doesn't mean you want him doing a bypass operation on your heart, you'll be better off with a cardiac surgery fellow that doesn't own a 60' sailboat (yet).

I guess without any information I would suggest the "high end" of the cheap suppliers. Extech DVMs, for example.

I think most of these comments are pointless unless you describe what application (including environment), what type of instrument, and what kind of accuracy you need. The market is complicated, there are a lot of choices, as it should be. Make an educated guess and get back to work.

edit: I guess I'll add that, in my experience, reliability isn't the thing that I recall as being an issue. Performance, features, and ease of use are what I've seen make the difference in instruments. But, I'm not out in the field climbing telephone poles either. There isn't much physical abuse happening in a good electronics lab.

 

[Windadct]

For a quick answer - anything relating to switching or dynamic performance will require 200 Mhz or higher.

For my personal bench I have a 2 CH 200Mhz Siglent - it is fine, is it pro-grade? no. I really wanted 4 channels to be able to look at Power Electronics switching performance, I can use the trigger and a V and I input, but still - 4 CH would be better. ( Bigger issue is actually the PC / USB interface is on the 4Ch, on mine I can only save screen captures)

I have a basic fluke, but still 4x the cost of a cheap dmm - the value in a fluke is it can be dropped... etc... a DMM will get physically abused.

But what do you expect to work on ... an Analog Discovery unit is an insane ( IMO) amount of tech for the money. A Lab also needs a proper power supply, or two, or three...

In today's market the warranty - reliability is the least of my concern if I am buying anything from a brand with a real market footprint.

 

[berkeman]

what kind of work, specifically, will I be able to do with a 200Mhz scope that I would not be able to do with a 100Mhz scope? Or a 50MHhz scope?

This depends on what you anticipate doing in your home lab. In your work lab, you will have 'scopes that fit the application. In your home repair work, it is unlikely that you will be probing fast signals. Rework Technician level SMT rework does not involve re-testing circuits -- that will be done by the engineer asking the tech to do the rework. Engineering Technician level work involves all levels of testing and probing -- my techs use the same instruments that I do, up to a few GHz very sophisticate 'scopes and logic analyzers. But it's unreasonable IMO for you to buy something like that to try to use at home to get experience with them.

Instead, I'd recommend using the new types of 'scopes that use PCs for the display and processing functions. I've been impressed with this brand of 'scopes, and have incorporated them into my current test fixtures:

https://www.picotech.com/products/oscilloscope

I still use high-end GHz dedicated 'scope/logic analyzer instruments for the more sophisticated stuff, but these USB-based 'scopes seem to perform pretty well.

 

[theycallmevirgo]

berkeman

Thanks so much from the advice "from the trenches". Given your background, I feel like I will be best served by following your advice.

From what I can tell, the picotech units are far out of my budget. I believe these are similar, though I would assume lower specs.

My basic question is this; can I expect to make any money whatsoever doing repairs if I spend $2-$3k total on bench hardware, or is that an unreasonable expectation? Surely there is something on ebay that I can buy in a state of disrepair, rebuild and resell?

 

[sophiecentaur]

Yes, we would all buy Fluke if we could afford it. That's like saying I'd prefer to eat filet mignon 7 days a week.

I could say the same about the cheap (20 quid) DMM that I bought from Maplin over 30 years ago. I turn it on and it still shows the answer.

I clearly don't have enough info to define what I need.

In which case I would suggest that you avoid spending much money at all. (Hence my suggestion to start on the eBay trail). If you spend as much as you feel you can afford then your 'feeling' should include the possibility of the equipment never returning you much money at all.
If you want the hobby of 'repairman' to pay for itself then you really need a lot of experience - time is money. (There is also the matter of liability when you sell equipment on a commercial basis,)

Surely there is something on ebay that I can buy in a state of disrepair, rebuild and resell?

eBay is full of such items. Spares or Repair is the phrase and you can pick stuff up for laughably low prices. Spending a lot of time refurbishing something may provide you with something really worth while that you could use. But would you make a profit on your deal, if you sold it? You would really need to know the market to be sure. Do you have the experience?
On The Other Hand, if you buy an item very cheap and you get it working, there is immense satisfaction and you get better at it, with time. A great hobby (my home is chock full of things I have mended and 'improved') but I never actually made any money.

 

[f95toli]

My basic question is this; can I expect to make any money whatsoever doing repairs if I spend $2-$3k total on bench hardware, or is that an unreasonable expectation? Surely there is something on ebay that I can buy in a state of disrepair, rebuild and resell?

It will obviously depend on what you are repairing. $3K wouldn't even pay for the cables, probes etc if you were to try to build a setup that could be used to troubleshoot high frequency circuits (which includes many digital circuits).
For some simpler circuits a cheap multimeter and perhaps an oscilloscope could potentially get you quite far if you know what you are doing. Personally, I would also add a long working distance microscope to the list of "necessary" equipment, especially if you expect to work on SMD circuits (which is how the vast majority of electronics is made today) but that also depends on how good your eyes are...

One -fairly- obvious question is what you are going to do once you've found the fault? Repairing circuits typically requires at the very least a good soldering iron, and for commercial electronics you might need a full rework station which is NOT cheap.

The only type of equipment I can think if that would be "easy" to repair assuming you knew how to with cheap(ish) equipment would be some high-end(ish) HiFi and equipment for music production (guitar amps etc). This is usually (not always) low frequency and tends to be relatively simple circuits, This is especially true if you work on tube based amps.

 

[theycallmevirgo]

One -fairly- obvious question is what you are going to do once you've found the fault? Repairing circuits typically requires at the very least a good soldering iron, and for commercial electronics you might need a full rework station which is NOT cheap.

That's _basically_ already taken care of.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Yes, we would all buy Fluke if we could afford it. That's like saying I'd prefer to eat filet mignon 7 days a week.

I can only speak to my own experience. That said, there is a certain economics in only needing to buy one of something.

 

[theycallmevirgo]

I can only speak to my own experience. That said, there is a certain economics in only needing to buy one of something.

I get it, and for the most part that's my philosophy as well. But I bought an Extech from Radio Shack when they still had a retail business and it hasn't failed me yet.