Explore the Nature of Spirit - Questions & Answers

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Mentat
Here's something to think about, if spirits exist, can they interact with the physical world? Are they physical themselves?

Well, lots of people claim to be spiritual mediums, but that you pretty much have to take with a grain of salt. It's not so much of matter of whether it's plausible or not (to me), but who are you going to trust? As far as spirits being physical or not? No. But they do have and enjoy a sense of "physicality" amongst themselves. They also at times are able to effect things directly on the physical plane, although typically it involves that which is unstable and "about to give."

 

[M. Gaspar]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
Well, lots of people claim to be spiritual mediums, but that you pretty much have to take with a grain of salt. It's not so much of matter of whether it's plausible or not (to me), but who are you going to trust? As far as spirits being physical or not? No. But they do have and enjoy a sense of "physicality" amongst themselves. They also at times are able to effect things directly on the physical plane, although typically it involves that which is unstable and "about to give."

If "spirit" exists...it would be -- IMO -- a "substance" (as I propose consciousness is ...and would exist in everything -- again, like consciousness.

If "spirit" does NOT exist..."spirituality" still does, which would be a seeking of high ideals and the strength to live them.

Although occasionally fun to consider, "spirits" do not interest me much because they would only be "dead people"...and most people, dead or alive, don't interest me much.

Well, I started my day talking to you Iacchus, so it seems well and good to be ending it likewise. I can only hope we still have some unanswered questions left to ponder in the morrow.

Goodnight. [zz)]

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by M. Gaspar
But what of "spirit"? How do we "use" spirit? Or, how does "spirit" use us ?

It is simply not as "evident" as consciousness, and could, in fact, be an expendable "construct" as many suggest.

I am not yet ready, however, to give up on the possibility of the existence of spirit.

As far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't have a soul if I wasn't conscious (i.e., that which acknowledges it's alive), which is why I pretty much view it as one and the same. Whereas when I go on my little escapades in my dreams/spiritual world, it's always that part of me, which is conscious, that does the interacting.

 

[maximus]

"I am not yet ready, however, to give up on the possibility of the existence of spirit." -M. Gasper


now, i don't mean to be annoying here, but why do you feel this way? obviously some part of you wants this to be true, maybe regardless of how you feel about it. after a only a few minutes of researching you, i get the impression that you are truly wanting to resovle something in this question. most of your posts are in universal conciousness type threads. do you consider yourself religious?

 

[M. Gaspar]

Originally posted by maximus
"I am not yet ready, however, to give up on the possibility of the existence of spirit." -M. Gasper


now, i don't mean to be annoying here, but why do you feel this way? obviously some part of you wants this to be true, maybe regardless of how you feel about it. after a only a few minutes of researching you, i get the impression that you are truly wanting to resovle something in this question. most of your posts are in universal conciousness type threads. do you consider yourself religious?

No. I consider myself "spiritual"...which, to me, is seeking the "highest" way of being in the world...then generating the personal strength to live these ideals.

Actually, I do not have a burning need to "resolve" anything. I have no problem being in an INQUIRY over the course of a lifetime (or two...or more).

But, you've "nailed" me on one thing: I'm more interested in CONSCIOUSNESS than "spirit". Don't know why.

 

[maximus]

Originally posted by M. Gaspar
But, you've "nailed" me on one thing: I'm more interested in CONSCIOUSNESS than "spirit". Don't know why.

if you are really wanting to know my position on this subject read my post in A Conscious Universe?, that pretty much summerizes my position, but you should know, i always am open to change my position on a subject, provided you give me convining evidence. and believe me, it has to be pretty dang convincing.

 

[maximus]

Originally posted by maximus
i always am open to change my position on a subject, provided you give me convining evidence. and believe me, it has to be pretty dang convincing.

evidence might not be the right word choice here. ...if you give me convincing logical reasoning... or illogical, whatever... the point is it'll be tough.

 

[sage]

consciousness is a cumulative result of the interactions between different parts of the brain as it gathers and processes incoming information.see details of an experiment in my reply to the thread IS CONSCIOUSNESS DEFINED IN SCIENCE?

 

[Royce]

To expand on my previous post, despite any objections or denials, in a more cosmological note as implied by other post in this thread I submit the following. This is again my belief and opinion though I am not the only one that believes as I do.
The aspect of God that is the Holy spirit pervades the universe and is a part of it. It is in my opinion the source of the life force that is so strong and everywhere at least here on Earth as there is vertually no where on Earth that life is not abundant and prolific even thousands of feet down in the rocks. I also think of it as the guiding force that insures that the universe behaves. Possibly it is the source of universal consciousness that we talked about in the thread "Conscious Universe". It is IMO the thing that ties us and the universe all together and is at lest in my mind the One that the asian religions speak of. It is of course immaterial and outside of time. It is ubiquitous. Has force and can and does interact with the material universe. In my mind at least it is the unifying force that make it all happen and keeps it working the way that it is meant to.

As for the soul, if we have no soul how do we account for the numerous out of body experiences that had been documented and verified by medical science? I personally know of two cases that have been verified, one a close friend and co-worker of mine. How can our consciousness and awareness leave our unconscious body and see and hear and be aware of all that is going on around them including their own unconscious body if there is no soul?

 

[maximus]

Originally posted by sage
consciousness is a cumulative result of the interactions between different parts of the brain as it gathers and processes incoming information.

that's pretty much exactly what i said.

 

[Iacchus32]

From the thread, https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2764&perpage=15&pagenumber=2" ...

Origincally posted by Iacchus32

Origincally posted by sage
Our brain gains knowledge by (1)memorizing events and facts and emotions associated with them and makes decisions by(2) comparing new events or facts with previous ones. But some degree of ‘hardwiring’ is done from birth.

It's our "conscious mind" (not brain) which does the comparing and making decisions. This is like comparing the difference between how a car functions, "properly," and what it takes to actually drive the car, which are two separate matters. In fact this is the very problem that exists with science. They are so busy caught up with how something works, that they lose sight of its actual function, which is just another fancy means of taking things out of context.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by M. Gaspar
Actually, there is a distinction (in MY mind) about "spirit" and "spirits". The former (to me) is a POSSIBLE coherent system of SOMETHING that has a will, self-awareness, and an "imbedded" "need" to evolve. It (spirit) would be "hooked up" to EVERYTHING ELSE...while focusing a FACET of its ATTENTION on the life it is living (at any given moment) through us.

"Spirits" (in my mind) are "ghosts"...which may or may not exist also...but, if they do, they are NOT the FULL or COMPLETE or TOTALITY of the "coherent system" that I'm thinking of when I say "spirit". Spirits might be reflections of a portion of the totality of a disembodied SPIRIT.

This, of course, is PURE SPECULATION -- or PURE B.S.! Take your pick.

Interesting enough, but the question remains, are they physical?

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
As far as spirits being physical or not? No.

Are you absolutely sure of this? Once you state it, it's going to stick, and it puts a huge kink in the idea of a spirit's having the ability to actually do anything in our Universe.

Think of those "Casper" comic strips. You'd often see Casper fly through walls and such, but then he would grab ahold of something, or push something around. These two cannot co-exist. Either he is physical or he is not.

 

[M. Gaspar]

Originally posted by Mentat
Are you absolutely sure of this? Once you state it, it's going to stick, and it puts a huge kink in the idea of a spirit's having the ability to actually do anything in our Universe.

Think of those "Casper" comic strips. You'd often see Casper fly through walls and such, but then he would grab ahold of something, or push something around. These two cannot co-exist. Either he is physical or he is not.

He's a cartoon. I'm pretty sure.

Meanwhile, any comment on the distinction between "spirit" and "spirits"?

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by M. Gaspar
He's a cartoon. I'm pretty sure.

Meanwhile, any comment on the distinction between "spirit" and "spirits"?

It's an interesting distinction, and reminds me (somewhat) of Gaia theories - in that it separates the spirit of the All, with the spirits of coherent "chunks" of the All.

As for Casper's being a cartoon, that doesn't change the fact that they are trying to depict "ghosts", that can both be immaterial and material, and that's not scientifically feasible. So, the question remains, are spirits physical entities?

 

[M. Gaspar]

Are "forces" physical? They exert, well, a force that effects matter.

Might "spirit" (which I'm interest in) -- as well as "spirits (which I'm not) -- be "forces" as well?

I'm pretty sure that they (either) are "coherent systems" of SOMETHING. But what? That's the question...or one of them.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Mentat
Are you absolutely sure of this? Once you state it, it's going to stick, and it puts a huge kink in the idea of a spirit's having the ability to actually do anything in our Universe.

Think of those "Casper" comic strips. You'd often see Casper fly through walls and such, but then he would grab ahold of something, or push something around. These two cannot co-exist. Either he is physical or he is not.

If spirits do have an effect on the world, it would probably have more to do with energy ... Energy fields? Kinetic energy? Which is why brought up the idea of something unstable, as it has the potential to release a lot of "kinetic energy."

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by M. Gaspar
Are "forces" physical? They exert, well, a force that effects matter.

Actually, there is no such thing as "force" in the traditional sense - according to modern physics. It is really just curvatures of spacetime.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
If spirits do have an effect on the world, it would probably have more to do with energy ... Energy fields? Kinetic energy? Which is why brought up the idea of something unstable, as it has the potential to release a lot of "kinetic energy."

And yet again, if they have an energy reaction with physical objects, then they must be physical beings.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by Mentat
And yet again, if they have an energy reaction with physical objects, then they must be physical beings.

Then again it may be just a matter of a slight shift in an energy field to "set something off."

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
Then again it may be just a matter of a slight shift in an energy field to "set something off."

"Energy fields" are physical.

 

[M. Gaspar]

Originally posted by Royce
To expand on my previous post, despite any objections or denials, in a more cosmological note as implied by other post in this thread I submit the following. This is again my belief and opinion though I am not the only one that believes as I do.
The aspect of God that is the Holy spirit pervades the universe and is a part of it. It is in my opinion the source of the life force that is so strong and everywhere at least here on Earth as there is vertually no where on Earth that life is not abundant and prolific even thousands of feet down in the rocks. I also think of it as the guiding force that insures that the universe behaves. Possibly it is the source of universal consciousness that we talked about in the thread "Conscious Universe". It is IMO the thing that ties us and the universe all together and is at lest in my mind the One that the asian religions speak of. It is of course immaterial and outside of time. It is ubiquitous. Has force and can and does interact with the material universe. In my mind at least it is the unifying force that make it all happen and keeps it working the way that it is meant to.

Well, I can align with the "life force" that pervades Everything...a fundamental ENERGY that connects and effects Everything. I just don't know why we have to call it "Holy"...or believe there is a "Plan" (as would be suggested by your statement about keeping it (Everything) "working the way it is 'MEANT' to."

The Universe is an evolving Entity -- with inherent forces, processes and ingredients that sort of "run themselves" (via cause & effect that might be driven my INTENTION). Must the Universe be deemed a "diety" for us to revere It with awe?

As for the soul, if we have no soul how do we account for the numerous out of body experiences that had been documented and verified by medical science? I personally know of two cases that have been verified, one a close friend and co-worker of mine. How can our consciousness and awareness leave our unconscious body and see and hear and be aware of all that is going on around them including their own unconscious body if there is no soul?

I have proposed (in "A COnscious Universe?") the consciousness is not confined to an entity (like ourselves)...but is part of a cosmic network to which we are all connected. That's why the "soul" (or "consciousness") can leave the body with full awareness...and why Casper can walk through walls!

 

[M. Gaspar]

Originally posted by Mentat
Actually, there is no such thing as "force" in the traditional sense - according to modern physics. It is really just curvatures of spacetime.

Then a de facto force ...whatever floats your boat!

 

[M. Gaspar]

Originally posted by Mentat
"Energy fields" are physical.

Well then...there you ARE!

 

[M. Gaspar]

And, if "thought" were an "energy field" we might "see" how it could "effect" "matter"...which is "only" another expression of ENERGY anyway.

As I've said: the Universe may be "ALL ENERGY ALL THE TIME."

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by M. Gaspar
Then a de facto force ...whatever floats your boat!

Chill out, M. Gaspar, I wasn't just spouting knowledge, I was making a point. If a spirit is going to be considered a physical entity (thus capable of interacting with other physical entities) it cannot be "just a force".

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by M. Gaspar
Well then...there you ARE!

You are missing the point. If a spirit is to be considered something qualitatively different from matter, it cannot be energy.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by M. Gaspar
And, if "thought" were an "energy field" we might "see" how it could "effect" "matter"...which is "only" another expression of ENERGY anyway.

I don't see what you mean.

As I've said: the Universe may be "ALL ENERGY ALL THE TIME."

It is all energy all the time. That's all that exists within the Universe, energy; whether it be in it's "free" or "congealed" forms. However, that doesn't explain how something non-physical can interact with something physical. If it is non-physical then it is not energy.

 

[M. Gaspar]

Originally posted by Mentat
Chill out, M. Gaspar, I wasn't just spouting knowledge, I was making a point. If a spirit is going to be considered a physical entity (thus capable of interacting with other physical entities) it cannot be "just a force".

I'm chilled...to "zero hostility". Honest. And I never think you're "just spouting knowledge".

I am EXPLORING what "Spirit" might be...and, to my mind, it MIGHT be "a force". On the other hand, since I tend to think that "Spirit" -- like everything else -- is a dynamic, coherent SYSTEM...then I need YOU to tell ME whether a "system" can be a "force"?

(PM)

 

[Iacchus32]

From Robert A. Johnson's, "ECSTASY - Understanding the Psychology of Joy" ...

You cannot kill a god, who is by definition immortal. Neither can you kill an archetype, for an archetype is a basic human drive. We carry the archetypes deep within us; they are integral parts of our human nature that must be lived out. When an archetype is not lived out with consciousness or dignity, as von Franz says, it "loads up with energy and becomes inhuman."

This happens not only on the level of the individual, but on the level of the collecitive unconscious, the psyche of a whole society. Carl Jung has said of this phenomenon:

The gigantic catastrophes that threaten us are not elemental happeinings of a physical or biological kind, but are psychic events. We are threatened in a fearful way by wars and revolutions that are nothing else than psychic epidemics. At any moment a few million people may be seized by a madness, and then we have another world war or a devastating revolution. Instead of being exposed to wild beasts, tumbling rocks, and inundating waters, man is exposed today to the elemental forces of his own psyche.

This was brought home one day when a friend took me to an air show. Thousands of people were in the crowd -- I'd never been to such a thing before. My friend said, "You know, there's a tremendous amount of collective power in a group like this. They will demand blood, and they're strong enough to get it." At that very moment a small plane crashed and burned right in front of us. I could feel the Dionysian energy galvanize the crowd, which was at once thrilled and horrified. It was a terrible form, but nonetheless the god was served.