- #36
tom.stoer
Science Advisor
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It would be helpful to see this wave function here ...
Greiner's book on QCD has an entire chapter number 7 on lattice QCD. It includes a discussion of the differences between the string tension and the Polyakov loop. This is detailed enough to provide a sufficient (not proven necessary) mechanism for proton mass and confinement. When you claimcmc said:Take alook at ay book ny Walter Grenier and you'll see good math in a physics book.
it seems you have not understood Greiner's book.cmc said:none with binding energy calculations.
cmc said:I thought it was against the rules to attack or insult other posters.
Anyway. To the casual observer the qcd lagrangian is not simple compare to classical gravity or electromagnetism - taught in hig hool and te ist years of colege - not subjective. Even the wave equations of general relativity are elementary compared to the qcd lagrangian.
And look publication up in any legal dictionary.
ansgar said:of course it is subjevtive, try to derive the einstein equations for GR to a kid in elementary school...
again, why should we bother about "laymans" understanding?
I don't mean to interrupt a perfectly productive argument but I can't let this one go. I am a layman and I'm happy to give you some very good reasons why "you" should bother.ansgar said:again, why should we bother about "laymans" understanding?
cmc said:I just asked for some citations to some qcd mass calculations, so I could make some of my own in a similar situation - more inexpensive than the texts on amazon or stanford bookstore. Comparing to experimental evidence is the only proof everyone will accept. More to the point, that I will for my problem. I didn't expect the barrage of bile I've received.
Hoku said:I don't mean to interrupt a perfectly productive argument but I can't let this one go. I am a layman and I'm happy to give you some very good reasons why "you" should bother.
1) In every layman lies the potential for a future scientist. If you can successfully reach out to an interested layman you are increasing the likelyhood that they will go deeper into the subject, possible ending up back in school to earn graduate degrees because kind people reached out to them and fueled their passion.
I'm 37 now and the idea of going back to school in the future is not out of the question. Even if I never could make it back, I have a 3-year old daughter. The information, in laymans terms, that I learn here can easily be passed on to her AND her friends that reach out to me. This means I have the power to instill a passion for science in these children. When any child asks me, "why should I care?" about math, science, whatever, I can give them reasons that inspire them to go further - because kind people in PF reached out to me.
2) Just because you're a layman doesn't mean you're "stupid". In fact, some layman have what it takes in the raw intelligence and creativity department to help solve some important problems. Similarly, just because you've earned a degree doesn't mean you have the raw intelligence or creativity to move anything forward. It just means you were able to memorize some things. How many "non-layman" graduate with a C average? Unfortunately, many. This is pretty sad.
3) If you can't describe something you've learned in layman's terms then chances are you don't understand it all that well in the first place. There are only two points that layman have trouble with; math and vocabulary. Fortunately, these don't have to be a problem. Science vocabulary is generally big words that describe ultimately simple concepts. If you can't find smaller words to "paraphrase" a vocabulary word, then you should start excercising that portion of your brain. Math describes physical processes. They are *proofs*. Laymen don't need to understand these proofs, they just need to understand what the proofs are describing. Why bother in this case? Because it pushes you to make new connections and solidify your own understanding. Wanna test how well you understand something? Explain it to a layman.
I'll leave it at that. Just becaue a person is "lay" doesn't mean they aren't influential. Just because someone has a degree doesn't mean they are. Please open your mind and your heart just a little more...
This I very much agree with.Hoku said:3) If you can't describe something you've learned in layman's terms then chances are you don't understand it all that well in the first place.
Sure. But that is irrelevant.Hoku said:2) Just because you're a layman doesn't mean you're "stupid".
This is quite against my personal experience. I did not choose physics, Physics chose me. Physics would be better off if it only had people truly passionate about it, to which their life is devoted to. I learned very little, maybe nothing, from texts aimed at "laymen". I only learn from equations written for people who want to understand by themselves.Hoku said:1) In every layman lies the potential for a future scientist. If you can successfully reach out to an interested layman you are increasing the likelyhood that they will go deeper into the subject, possible ending up back in school to earn graduate degrees because kind people reached out to them and fueled their passion.
humanino said:This is quite against my personal experience. I did not choose physics, Physics chose me. Physics would be better off if it only had people truly passionate about it, to which their life is devoted to. I learned very little, maybe nothing, from texts aimed at "laymen". I only learn from equations written for people who want to understand by themselves.
humanino said:Greiner's book on QCD has an entire chapter number 7 on lattice QCD. It includes a discussion of the differences between the string tension and the Polyakov loop. This is detailed enough to provide a sufficient (not proven necessary) mechanism for proton mass and confinement. When you claimit seems you have not understood Greiner's book.
The relevance of my point is twofold: First, intelligent layman can still be of value to those with degrees by offering unique insights. Second, even if those who help laymen don't get any such value, the knowledge that laymen obtain can still be applied as insights that make meaningful impacts elsewhere. So, saying, "why bother about a laymans understanding" is just as much saying, "laymen have no ultimate value, are stupid and not worth wasting time on". I'm saying that intelligent laymen exist and, if they're interested, they ARE worth the time.humanino said:Sure. But that is irrelevant.
I completely agree here. This was part of my point. There are people that have degrees in physics that did it for reasons other than a passion. They make good "minions" but are unlikely to drive the progress of science. I think your point here is that, if someone hasn't had a passion for physics since the age of 16, then they will never develope it. This I have to disagree with.humanino said:Physics would be better off if it only had people truly passionate about it[...]
Hoku said:ansgar, I understand your perspective and I agree with you. It's nice to know that I simply misunderstood your quote, although I'm sure you can see how easy it was to do.
The relevance of my point is twofold: First, intelligent layman can still be of value to those with degrees by offering unique insights. Second, even if those who help laymen don't get any such value, the knowledge that laymen obtain can still be applied as insights that make meaningful impacts elsewhere. So, saying, "why bother about a laymans understanding" is just as much saying, "laymen have no ultimate value, are stupid and not worth wasting time on". I'm saying that intelligent laymen exist and, if they're interested, they ARE worth the time. I completely agree here. This was part of my point. There are people that have degrees in physics that did it for reasons other than a passion. They make good "minions" but are unlikely to drive the progress of science. I think your point here is that, if someone hasn't had a passion for physics since the age of 16, then they will never develope it. This I have to disagree with.
Every person is different. Every life goes in different directions, discovering different passions at different times and for different reasons. You find no value in layman books, I find tremendous value in them. Science and math classes can be very dry and boring for me. It wasn't until I entered college at 23 that I was able to enjoy them (I went for 2 years then had to abandon it). If not for the layman books, I might never have taken science in college and I would never have known what I was missing. My nature is more philosophical. I am more interested by the questions left to answer than the I am the answers that there is nothing to left to question. It wasn't until I encountered layman books that I discovered the fascination to be found in science. Layman books jump to the heart of the philosophical questions that early, routine science classes miss. THIS is what sparks my passion and why I was a late bloomer for my interest in science.
Life takes us all down different paths, but that doesn't mean we won't end up at the same destination. One path is not better than another. In fact, the more different paths we can take to a similar destination, the more insights we have to pool in making discoveries. Viva la difference!
Hmm... I have to say this post has me most perplexed. The best I can think is that you thought I was quoting you when I was actually quoting Humanino?? I think that must be what happened. At any rate, I'm off to bed now.ansgar said:again, you misinterpreted me, you took the quote from it's context.
Thanks for clarifying. Yours is an experience quite different from mine, which I have never witnessed. One should mention against myself the example of Ed Witten, who seem to have come to physics after quite some twists and turns, and undoubtedly contributed enormously. Yet again, I am unsure whether "layman books" played any role in that story.Hoku said:I think your point here is that, if someone hasn't had a passion for physics since the age of 16, then they will never develope it. This I have to disagree with.
Every person is different. Every life goes in different directions, discovering different passions at different times and for different reasons. You find no value in layman books, I find tremendous value in them. Science and math classes can be very dry and boring for me. It wasn't until I entered college at 23 that I was able to enjoy them (I went for 2 years then had to abandon it). If not for the layman books, I might never have taken science in college and I would never have known what I was missing.