News FEinstein: Assault Weapons Ban Bill

[Skrew]

Read what I posted about fewer people owning guns, but those fewer people own more guns and while deaths due to crime have decreased, deaths by guns have increased. What does that tell you? More guns = more deaths, in the hands of fewer people. That's a fact.

I don't worry about so much about people owning guns that do not own them out of fear, it's the people that own them out of fear that scares me. If you own a gun because you think you need protection in a safe neighborhood, you shouldn't own a gun, IMO. I would like a complete psychological evaluation required before anyone could buy a gun. I think 90% of the people wanting a gun would be denied because they are buying guns for the wrong reason and can't be trusted to be responsible gun owners.

I'm going to need evidence showing less people own firearms. Not proportions but people total, I suspect the number is steadily riseing. In terms of total deaths, you already wrote it's not an issue statistically. Also you're equateing suicides and accidental discharges with homocides, they aren't. The only gun deaths worth looking at are murders.

I own firearms for the same reason you own home owners insurance and a fire extinguisher.

I don't think you are in a position to say 90% of gun owners shouldn't be able to own guns, I actually think that's a completely absurd statement. I do suspect it reflects the general mindset of the people behind things like this latest AWB legislation(which has no chance of passing in its current form) and shows what their longterm goals are. It's unfortunate many aren't more honest in public debate.

Not really, politicians fear the NRA and gun groups, as was cited in the article I linked. There won't be a popular vote by the people.

They fear the NRA because people consider their gun ownership as important and politicians against it will not be voted for. We place gun ownership as one of our main voteing issues.

This AWB bill has caused a huge number of gun purchases over the last few weeks. Everyone is out of stock, one of the popular gun websites sold out of a years supply of magazines within 2 days. All the manufactuers are working 24/7 now to meet demand.

It will be kind of ironic when this bill fails and millions of additional guns will have entered circulation because of it.

 

[russ_watters]

Guns are pieces of machinery that are designed to let a person kill something. There is no difference between a "weapon of war" and a "hunting rifle," unless one is talking machine guns. Otherwise, a gun is a gun.

Nope. Guns used for hunting and guns used for infantry are historically the same weapon and in modern times can easily be the same weapon. Manufacturers design certain rifles today that are only intended to be used for hunting, such as certain bolt-action rifles as infantry do not use bolt-actions in modern times except as a sniper rifle, but if you took one of these modern bolt-action hunting rifles back to World War I or before, there is no reason it could not be adopted as a military gun. Just the same, there is no reason why modern infantry rifles cannot be adopted for hunting purposes.

Ugh. We're going around in circles and there are three problems here:

1. You've forgotten what you are arguing about. You're arguing against the name "assault weapon" so providing examples of weapons that are military type but aren't assault weapons is actually arguing against your point.

2. You say "a gun is a gun" except when they aren't and provide examples of where they aren't the same! In particular, a sniper rifle, who's feature list includes things that make it better for hunting than for shooting up a room full of kids. Again, you are arguing against your point there, but more importantly the point that "a gun is a gun" is false at face value and you know it because you've provided some of the examples! I linked the wiki article on assault weapons and the article includes a list of distinguishing features. You showed a sniper rifle with different features. These features are real. They exist. You can't make them go away by parroting over and over again that they don't exist.

3. Taken separately, you've accepted all the facts but then disagree when they are all put together. All together: Sniper type rifles are better suited for hunting and assault rifles are better suited for shooting up a room full of kids. That's why the shooters chose them. That's why they should not be allowed to have them.

We do not allow unrestricted access to weapons of all sorts.

Right. Guns are all the same except ones that aren't and ones that are more dangerous are banned and you know all of this and agree that it should be that way.

Except "assault rifles".

 

[Astronuc]

One thing to remember about the NRA though is that it gets its influence from all the people that support it. It is not a lobbyist of the gun industry as many think, as gun manufacturing is too small an industry to have the kind of influence in Washington that the NRA has. So I'd say the difference is really that Australia didn't/doesn't have a large number of citizens who care about gun rights the way the U.S. does.

Apparently the gun manufacturing industry does provide the NRA with financial support.

http://www.marketplace.org/topics/business/guns-and-dollars/there-are-more-guns-fewer-gun-owners

The Violence Policy Center has estimated that since 2005, gun manufacturers have contributed up to $38.9 million to the NRA. Those numbers, however, are based on publicly listed “sponsorship” levels on NRA fundraising pamphlets. The real figures could be much bigger. Like Crossroads GPS or Americans for Prosperity, or the Sierra Club for that matter, the NRA does not disclose any donor information even though it spends millions on federal elections.

. . .

http://www.thenation.com/blog/171776/does-nra-represent-gun-manufacturers-or-gun-owners#

A perspective from a gun-owner and former NRA member - http://expressmilwaukee.com/article-permalink-4966.html

 

[CAC1001]

Ugh. We're going around in circles and there are three problems here:

1. You've forgotten what you are arguing about. You're arguing against the name "assault weapon" so providing examples of weapons that are military type but aren't assault weapons is actually arguing against your point.

My point is that there is no difference between the guns used for hunting and the guns used for infantry (disregarding machine guns).

2. You say "a gun is a gun" except when they aren't and provide examples of where they aren't the same! In particular, a sniper rifle, who's feature list includes things that make it better for hunting than for shooting up a room full of kids. Again, you are arguing against your point there, but more importantly the point that "a gun is a gun" is false at face value and you know it because you've provided some of the examples! I linked the wiki article on assault weapons and the article includes a list of distinguishing features. You showed a sniper rifle with different features. These features are real. They exist. You can't make them go away by parroting over and over again that they don't exist.

What is false about it? So different guns may be more ideal for different purposes. The point is that any gun can be used for any purpose if it will do the job the person is doing. A bolt-action rifle could be used to shoot up a room full of kids, it would just be slower-going for the shooter, but the children would not be able to stop them. And an AR-15 could be used as a sniper rifle, for example the 2002 D.C. sniper used an AR-15.

I say the term "assault weapon" is wrong because it was made up by people with an agenda. It was not created as an official term for firearms. Just because legislators create the term "assault weapon" and then create a list of features designating what constitutes an "assault weapon" does not mean "assault weapon" is an actual type of gun.

3. Taken separately, you've accepted all the facts but then disagree when they are all put together. All together: Sniper type rifles are better suited for hunting and assault rifles are better suited for shooting up a room full of kids. That's why the shooters chose them. That's why they should not be allowed to have them. Right. Guns are all the same except ones that aren't and ones that are more dangerous are banned and you know all of this and agree that it should be that way.

Except "assault rifles".

Assault rifles are automatic fire weapons and are thus already banned. I stated a few posts back that, "There is no difference between a "weapon of war" and a "hunting rifle," unless one is talking machine guns." The weapons the shooters have used are just semi-automatic rifles, although they look menacing. Semi-automatic is what virtually every gun in the country is and goes back to the beginning of the 20th century. Before that, they had lever-actions, which, while you can't fire them as quickly as a semi-auto, you most definitely can still shoot them quickly enough and they are powerful guns. The Aurora shooter for example opened fire with a pump-action shot gun when his AR-15 jammed. Pump-action is not semi-auto, but most definitely can be used to shoot people with.

So if you are arguing that people should not be allowed to own AR-15s, you are essentially arguing that they should not be allowed to own semi-automatics period, which basically means taking people back to 19th century gun technology for the most part. Of course, a mass shooting could still occur with a lever-action or a pump-action, so then are we going to ban those as well?

 

[CAC1001]

Apparently the gun manufacturing industry does provide the NRA with financial support.

http://www.marketplace.org/topics/business/guns-and-dollars/there-are-more-guns-fewer-gun-owners

Oh I believe the gun industry definitely gives money to the NRA, but I do not believe that the NRA is a front for the gun industry the way the gun control proponents portray it to be, because gun manufacturing is such a small industry. An industry that, as a whole, has only a fraction of the revenues of the larger companies, such as Wal-Mart and General Dynamics and Bank of America and Exxon-Mobil, etc...is not going to have the kind of lobbying ability the NRA has.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/171776/does-nra-represent-gun-manufacturers-or-gun-owners#

I'd be careful going by what the Violence Policy Center claims. You might as well be citing statistics on why gun ownership is good from the NRA.

A perspective from a gun-owner and former NRA member - http://expressmilwaukee.com/article-permalink-4966.html

I'd say that, on at least one of his main points, the guy is a propagandist. Just look at this quote:

The gun industry and the National Rifle Association (NRA) don't want you to know that gun sales have stagnated for years, and their campaigns to legalize concealed carry and fight restrictions on the sales of highly lethal weapons are part of their strategy to boost stagnant gun sales.

Tom Diaz, senior policy analyst at the Violence Policy Center, argues that this business strategy does a disservice to the sport shooters and hunters who make up the bulk of the NRA's membership, and has resulted in turning the United States into the "last great market" for cheap and highly lethal weapons. Diaz, the author of Making a Killing and the forthcoming No Borders: Transnational Latino Gangs and American Law Enforcement, spoke to the Shepherd about the true motives of the gun industry, how President George Bush allowed assault-style weapons to be imported into the United States, and what President-elect Barack Obama should do about gun violence.

What is a "highly-lethal weapon?" All guns are "highly-lethal" if fired at a person. They mean guns that look scary, that are otherwise no different than any other gun. The very fact he even uses that description blows a hole into his credibility, IMO. Also, so-called "highly-lethal" weapons are not what are used in the majority of gun violence cases: Here is a link to the VPC itself saying this: http://www.vpc.org/studies/unsafe.htm

Regarding President Bush, President Bush said he'd sign a renewal of the Assault Weapons Ban if the Congress would pass it, but the Congress didn't: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/09/politics/09ban.html

 

[Pete Cortez]

But not that many americans actually own guns, gun owners are in the minority opposed to non-gun owners. I have a hard time believing that the majority of Americans are not against guns, as in I believe that the "polls" are not real.http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/31/politics/gun-ownership-declining/index.html

According to the last gallup poll, only 30% of American adults claimed to own a gun.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/20098/gun-ownership-use-america.aspx

Out of date. Here's some more up to date. At 47 percent and with that margin of error, could well be that a majority of Americans own or have access to a firearm.

Also, I agree that the polls may not be entirely trustworthy, but could be in the opposite direction. And we have no information on the non-response rate.

The support the NRA claims is not there. I believe that if it was left up to the American public, no politicians or gun lobbies involved, we would ban guns.

That's an interesting belief, but the fact remains that there is a lobby for gun owners, retailer and manufacturers. There are politicians. And there is no chance in hell that further restrictions will pass in Congress.

 

[Pete Cortez]

Apparently the gun manufacturing industry does provide the NRA with financial support.

http://www.marketplace.org/topics/business/guns-and-dollars/there-are-more-guns-fewer-gun-owners

Confusing the NRA Foundation with NRA proper. NRA-ILA and NRA-PVF, the grassroots and PAC arms respectively, have different funding mechanisms.

 

[Pete Cortez]

I mean I believe gun crime actually went down (i.e. Australia is a valid example for gun ban working).

It did go down, but there is considerable disagreement if the decline followed the Agreement or represents a previous trend.

On the empirical side, there are a number of analyses that raise doubts about the effectiveness of governmental gun buybacks, particularly the large Australian buyback of 1996-1997. The Australian buyback was one of the largest buyback programs in history and ultimately involved the repurchase of some 600,000 firearms. The stated purpose of this buyback was to reduce the stock of circulating firearms by approximately 1/5 th by repurchasing the used guns at the market price. A number of empirical studies have examined the impact of this buyback, with most recent being Lee and Suardi (2010) and Leigh and Neill (June 2010). Lee and Suardi, as well as a number of previous authors, conclude the buyback has had little to no effect on firearms related deaths in Australia. However, Leigh and Neill argue that when panel (cross-sectional and timevarying) data is used, there is a significant drop in firearm suicide rates in Australia due to the buyback (although the relationship between gun homicides rates and buybacks is more ambiguous). Hence, the empirical evidence is somewhat mixed which, of course, begs the theoretical question: why might these buyback programs not be as effective as originally thought?

 

[Pete Cortez]

Are you people crazy? No guns at all. Supermarkets provide food. America's army kicks everyones arse. If a criminal comes at you with a knife, just swing a baseball bat. That's what we do in Australia. NRA? When will you Americans wake up and recognise that you are not a democracy. You are a cash-ocracy. The middleclass is so sleepy in the US. The middleclass in Australia runs the country not the rich, we are a democracy. Try and get a free gun law passed in Australia and you go on the terrorist list...

What if said criminal comes at you with a gun?

 

[Pete Cortez]

I'd be careful going by what the Violence Policy Center claims. You might as well be citing statistics on why gun ownership is good from the NRA.

One of the more egregious cases of VPC dishonesty: http://supreme.lp.findlaw.com/supreme_court/briefs/07-290/07-290.mer.ami.resp.slf.pdf (pages 19-22).

 

[edward]

The NRA with 4 million members claims to speak for 100 million gun owners.

The NRA is designated as a 501(c)(3) and a 501(c)(4) organization,[2] which allows it to operate both as a charity and to participate in political campaigns and lobbying.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association

WHO DOES THE NRA REALLY SPEAK FOR
IT SPEAKS FOR GUN MAKERS

But membership fees don't pay the NRA's bills alone. In recent years, the group has become more aggressive about seeking donations, both from individuals and corporations, and that in turn has led it to become more deeply entwined with the gun industry. In 2010, it received $71 million in contributions, up from $46.3 million in 2004. Some of that money came from small-time donors, who've received a barrage of fundraising appeals warning of President Obama's imminent plot to gut the Second Amendment and confiscate Americans' firearms. But around 2005, the group began systematically reaching out to its richest members for bigger checks through its "Ring of Freedom" program, which also sought to corral corporate donors. Between then and 2011, the Violence Policy Center estimates that the firearms industry donated as much as $38.9 million to the NRA's coffers. The givers include 22 different gun makers, including famous names like Smith & Wesson, Beretta USA, SIGARMS, and Sturm, Ruger & Co. that also manufacture so-called assault weapons.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/12/whom-does-the-nra-really-speak-for/266373/

 

[Pete Cortez]

And that's why we need to bring the constitution out of the dark ages and face reality.

What dark ages? A law infringing on constitutional rights does not necessarily mean that they are unconstitutional. The courts are currently determining the appropriate level of scrutiny--to the exclusion of rational basis review--to apply to what laws in under what circumstances.

If we had won our freedom prior to the gun age, would you be arguing for swords? Also, it was meant for purposes of a militia, we have an established military/National Guard now, we no longer have the need to call on civilian volunteers. People don't really own guns now planning to be called to protect the country, IMO.

I'll agree that the 2nd ammendment covers guns if we restrict gun ownership to the same guns available at the time.

Why only to the guns available at the same time? Firearms have a thousand year history predating the adoption of the Constitution. Revolving wheellocks were around since the end of the 16th century. Breech loaders were present by the 17th. Surely the Founders were aware that these instruments did not appear de novo, nor unaware of innovations in gunsmithing within their own lifetimes. I find it difficult to believe given agricultural and industrial policy in post-colonial America that the Founders sought to peg a constitutional right to a particular frame of technology.

Anything more advanced would require a new law. It's ridiculous what people are trying to claim, that current guns are covered under what the authors of the constitution envisioned.

Aside from the two specific forms of action dominant today--recoil and blowback--all other major families of autoloading were conceived and invented within the lifetimes of the Founders.

 

[Pete Cortez]

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/12/whom-does-the-nra-really-speak-for/266373/

Not quite sure where The Atlantic got the idea that Ring of Freedom was a corporate giving vehicle.

 

[Evo]

Out of date. Here's some more up to date. At 47 percent and with that margin of error, could well be that a majority of Americans own or have access to a firearm.

You've confused two different polls, mine was "gun ownership", you're qouting "guns in households". If you scroll down in your link you'll find "gun ownership" to be at 34%. So it has increased, but it's still roughly only 1/3rd of the population that actually owns guns. Most of the gun ownership seems to be heavily in the southern states.

Guns in household would be like my friend that inherited his grandfather's shotgun, but he has never used it, it's buried in the back of a closet. I guess you could say technically he now owns it, but he would be more likely to say he just has a gun in his house. He's not even sure if it works.

 

[Pythagorean]

You've confused two different polls, mine was "gun ownership", you're qouting "guns in households". If you scroll down in your link you'll find "gun ownership" to be at 34%. So it has increased, but it's still roughly only 1/3rd of the population that actually owns guns. Most of the gun ownership seems to be heavily in the southern states.

Guns in household would be like my friend that inherited his grandfather's shotgun, but he has never used it, it's buried in the back of a closet. I guess you could say technically he now owns it, but he would be more likely to say he just has a gun in his house. He's not even sure if it works.

I have about five guns that there are no record of, which is typical in Alaska, where people trade/sell/buy guns to each other regularly.

I'm giving them to my father though, as I haven't used them since joining the circus (er, I mean academics). My father will probably have 10-15 guns, maybe 2 or 3 of them have records associated with them.

 

[Pete Cortez]

Nonsense. You've posted one example of a crossover, but that's it. Most hunting rifles do not look like assault rifles. I'd like to know honestly how many people hunt with an M-16 copy. And in addition, you posted one very badly chosen example:

1. I don't think you can prove that most hunting rifles don't look like assault rifles; varmint hunting has a considerably lengthier season than big game.

2. AR-15 isn't a copy of an M16. M16, however, does derive from the AR-15.

Sniper rifles. Sniper rifles are intended for one-shot-one-kill use, much like hunting rifles. They are not the same as assault rifles and often aren't even semi-automatic, such as in your example of the Remmington 700.

Some are certainly semi-automatic.

1. M110
2. M82.


They wouldn't be classified as assault rifles even without the increasingly inconsequential select fire simply because they chamber cartridges lethal outside of the typical engagement range of modern infantry. In the old days, you'd call them battle rifles.

So in this case, you're arguing against your point: Since the rifle is a military-type, but specialized for accuracy and not high firing rate or portability or other infantry type functionality, it is not the type of weapon that needs to be banned for civilian use. Hence the need for another term to describe the type of weapon that is to be banned: assault weapons/rifles.

A point. For most of their history, civilian small firearms have been military type. Your stereotypical lever action breech loader is an evolved Henry rifle. Your standard bolt action finds its heritage in the Remington-Lee 1885 and the Krag-Jorgenson.

I'm not an expert, though, so you tell me: why is the Remmington 700 single-shot?

It's not, it has a five round magazine. You don't find much in the way of single-shots outside of the sporting and enthusiast community.

Why the lack of a carrying handle on top?

Most rifles throughout history have lacked such a handle, regardless of whether or not they were used by civilians.

Why no flash suppressor?

Same as above.

Why a solid stock?

Wood used to be cheaper than metal or plastic.

Could it be that all of these features affect accuracy?

No, but they do affect reliability (and in the case of the flash guard, improve visibility after firing).

 

[Pete Cortez]

You've confused two different polls, mine was "gun ownership", you're qouting "guns in households".

Not confusing the polls, simply providing more up to date information. And pointing out that 47 percent of Americans have access to said firearms, regardless of whether or not it is there name on the Form 4473. I'll also point out that this trend has been going up since the nadir in 1993, which is truly encouraging.

Guns in household would be like my friend that inherited his grandfather's shotgun, but he has never used it, it's buried in the back of a closet. I guess you could say technically he now owns it, but he would be more likely to say he just has a gun in his house. He's not even sure if it works.

Possibly. Or it means a parent who bought his kids' first rifles. A fifth of the population is under 18, remember? And again, neither this survey or the similar GSS one answers the question of "what do non-respondents own/have access to?"

 

[Evo]

I'll also point out that this trend has been going up since the nadir in 1993, which is truly encouraging.

I find the trend (primarily in the southern states) of stockpiling weapons very disturbing. And the reasons they're buying, fearing doomsday scenarios, believing their guns will be taken away, so need to buy as many as possible. How anyone can consider this "encouraging" is beyond me.

Anyway, we seem to have exhausted this topic and as was pointed out earlier, the thread is going in circles, so time to put another gun thread to rest.