NTL2009
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I'll try to get to your previous post later, but for now (and somewhat out-of-order) - OK, good to see that you see that. But that helps capsulize my issue with Dave Ramsey. Actually, you stated it well later...kyphysics said:I totally agree.
His get out of debt at all costs is not good advice for a lot of folks. ...
kyphysics said:Long story short: Dave has great insights into many things, while simultaneously being unreasonable and flawed in other areas. A well educated and independent, rational thinking person (not someone who follows others blindly) should be able to pick out which areas are worth applying and which are not in Dave's advice and philosophy. ...
But Dave Ramsey appeals to beginners who do not have the background to pick out good from bad advice. And he comes across with such confidence in all these areas, and appears as a 'guru/white-knight/savior' to follow (I say 'white knight' as he describes the CC companies as 'snakes'). So people do get sucked into some questionable things, where they would be better served with education, and learning independent thought.
Now, people can certainly have different philosophies on personal investing, there is some subjectivity involved, but I think we can agree that objectively, as in your examples, it isn't helpful to treat all debt as bad debt. So allow me to make an imperfect analogy to illustrate:
Let's say you were a beginner at math. Your parents hire a teacher for you that is well respected, and appears confident in all he/she does. But 1/4 of what they teach is wrong. You, as a beginner, don't know how to separate the good from the bad. The teacher is equally confident in all of it. You are not getting a good math education, and your parents should be angry, but they don't know any better either.
kyphysics said:I hear you, though, that sometimes his own ignorance or flawed thinking can harm a listener and that does make me upset and sad....
... It's really his super hardcore ideological financial conservatism that is not open to debt as a SOMETIMES good/okay idea that can tick me off at times.
*Maybe now I'm starting to see why you're "angry" before.*![]()
Hah hah - just to clarify, in my other posts, I used a lot of emphasis, as you seemed to just not be getting/responding to my points. It wasn't anger. Though I was a little 'angry' at DR when he was congratulating that family on these bad decisions, all in the name of "getting out of debt for getting out of debt's sake". I'm pretty well situated financially, but I have empathy for those starting out and/or struggling. I could make a financial error of a size that would be very hard on someone in that position, and I'll kick myself, and learn from it, and consider that I need to do better on average, but it won't affect my life style one bit, I've got some buffer there for mistakes. But this family didn't. Selling off stuff in what amounted to a 'fire sale', just to get out of debt, hurt them. And it hurt me to listen to everyone applauding this, rather than using it as a teaching moment on making good decisions about debt. But these people don't know that, and follow the leader.
I just wish DR was more balanced. Sure, some people need some "Emergency Room" treatment. But then they need education to think for themselves. If you really can't handle credit cards, then tear them up (for now). But there should be the message that long term, you will do better to learn how to use tools to your advantage, and instead of a CC 'costing' you in extra spending and fees, your CC can provide you with a 2-3-4% discount on most of what you buy. What's the old expression? "Most people work for their money, smart people have their money working for them"? My credit cards work for me, and they can work for anyone who develops a healthy, rational understanding of their relationship with (emphasis!) their money.
I'll edit/add this: I can't get inside DR's mind, but he seems like a smart and sophisticated guy. I suspect that he knows this as well, but has carved out an audience that appeals to this simple black or white approach to debt. If that's the case, then in a way, he is taking advantage of them for his benefit (radio show & books and I suppose speaking engagements). I can't respect that. He could work the 'education' into his show, but I think he feels that would lose the audience. I think he could do both.