Find a Solution for $y=\sqrt{7x+\sqrt{7x+\sqrt{7x}}}$

  • Context: MHB 
  • Thread starter Thread starter karush
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Chain Chain rule
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around finding the derivative \(y'\) of the function \(y=\sqrt{7x+\sqrt{7x+\sqrt{7x}}}\). Participants explore various methods for implicit differentiation and express concerns about the complexity of the resulting expressions.

Discussion Character

  • Mathematical reasoning, Technical explanation, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests squaring the equation to simplify the differentiation process, leading to the expression \(y^2-7x=\sqrt{7x+\sqrt{7x}}\).
  • Another participant proposes an alternative approach using substitutions, letting \(u= \sqrt{7x+ \sqrt{7x}}\) and deriving \(y\) in terms of \(u\).
  • Concerns are raised about the complexity of the final answer, with one participant noting that online calculators return lengthy expressions for \(y'\).
  • Several participants discuss the importance of applying the chain rule correctly when differentiating, emphasizing that \(y\) is a function of \(x\).
  • There are multiple iterations of the differentiation process, with participants checking each other's work and correcting signs in their equations.
  • One participant expresses uncertainty about the correctness of their differentiation steps and seeks confirmation from others.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the need to apply implicit differentiation and the use of the chain rule, but there is no consensus on the final form of the derivative or the best method to arrive at it. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the simplest or most effective approach.

Contextual Notes

Some participants mention that the process involves complex algebraic manipulation and that the final expressions may vary significantly in length and complexity depending on the method used.

karush
Gold Member
MHB
Messages
3,240
Reaction score
5
find y'
$$y=\sqrt{7x+\sqrt{7x+\sqrt{7x}}}$$

ok this was on mml but they gave an very long process to solve it

don't see any way to expand it except recycle it via chain rule

any suggest...
 
Physics news on Phys.org
I think I might square and arrange as:

$$y^2-7x=\sqrt{7x+\sqrt{7x}}$$

At this point you could implicitly differentiate w.r.t \(x\) and solve for $$\d{y}{x}$$, or you could square again:

$$y^4-14xy^2+49x^2=7x+\sqrt{7x}$$

Now, implicitly differentiate w.r.t \(x\) and solve for $$\d{y}{x}$$. :)
 
well that makes a lot more sense than redoing a chain
 
karush said:
find y'
$$y=\sqrt{7x+\sqrt{7x+\sqrt{7x}}}$$

ok this was on mml but they gave an very long process to solve it

don't see any way to expand it except recycle it via chain rule

any suggest...
Let $u= \sqrt{7x+ \sqrt{7x}}$ so that $y= \sqrt{7x+ u}= (7x+ u)^{1/2}$. Then $\frac{dy}{dx}= \frac{1}{2}(7x+ u)^{-1/2}\left(7+ \frac{du}{dx}\right)$. To find $\frac{du}{dx}$ let $v= \sqrt{7x}$. Then $u= (7x+ v)^{1/2}$. $\frac{du}{dx}= \frac{1}{2}(7x+ v)^{-1/2}\left(7+ \frac{dv}{dx}\right)$.

$\frac{dv}{dx}= \frac{1}{2}(7x)^{-1/2}(7)$.
 
ok that's a very interesting process and easy to follow

but really is that the final answer

runing it thru some of the online calculators returned very long answers

symbolab returned this

$$\frac{28\sqrt{x}\sqrt{7x+\sqrt{7}\sqrt{x}}+14\sqrt{x}+\sqrt{7}}{8\sqrt{x}\sqrt{7x+\sqrt{7}\sqrt{x}}\sqrt{7x+\sqrt{7x+\sqrt{7}\sqrt{x}}}}$$

https://www.symbolab.com/solver/imp...frac{dy}{dx}, y=\sqrt{7x+\sqrt{7x+\sqrt{7x}}}
 
MarkFL said:
I think I might square and arrange as:

$$y^2-7x=\sqrt{7x+\sqrt{7x}}$$

At this point you could implicitly differentiate w.r.t \(x\) and solve for $$\d{y}{x}$$, or you could square again:

$$y^4-14xy^2+49x^2=7x+\sqrt{7x}$$

Now, implicitly differentiate w.r.t \(x\) and solve for $$\d{y}{x}$$. :)

ok I am going to do this a step at a time since I get hung up on implicit differentation

$$\displaystyle 98x-14y^2=7+\frac{\sqrt{7}}{2\sqrt{x}}$$
 
karush said:
ok I am going to do this a step at a time since I get hung up on implicit differentation

$$\displaystyle 98x-14y^2=7+\frac{\sqrt{7}}{2\sqrt{x}}$$

You can't treat \(y\) as a constant, because it is a function of \(x\). You need to use the chain rule. :)
 
thusly?
$\displaystyle 4y^3y'-14y^2+28xyy'+98x=7+\frac{\sqrt{7}}{2\sqrt{x}}$
 
karush said:
thusly?
$\displaystyle 4y^3y'-14y^2+28xyy'+98x=7+\frac{\sqrt{7}}{2\sqrt{x}}$

Check your signs on the LHS. :)
 
  • #10
MarkFL said:
Check your signs on the LHS. :)

i suppose this$\displaystyle 4y^3y'-14y^2-28xyy'+98x=7+\frac{\sqrt{7}}{2\sqrt{x}}$if so then isolate y'
 
Last edited:
  • #11
$$\begin{align*}\displaystyle
4y^3y'-14y^2-28xyy'+98x&=7+\frac{\sqrt{7}}{2\sqrt{x}}\tag{implied eq}\\
y'(4y^3y-28xy)&=7+\frac{\sqrt{7}}{2\sqrt{x}}+14y^2-98x\tag{separate variables}\\
y'&=\frac{7+\frac{\sqrt{7}}{2\sqrt{x}}+14y^2-98x}{4y^3y-28xy}\tag{divide both sides}
\end{align*}$$

Ok, if this is correct so far the final would just be simplification which is still a complicated answer.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
1K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
Replies
1
Views
1K
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
Replies
21
Views
4K