Find Local Max/Min: 2nd Derivative=0

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around identifying local maxima and minima when the second derivative at a point is zero. Participants explore theoretical aspects and analytical methods related to stationary points and their classifications based on the behavior of higher-order derivatives.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants clarify that a "stationary point" occurs when the first derivative is zero and the second derivative is also specified as zero.
  • It is proposed that if the first nonzero derivative is odd, the point is classified as a stationary inflection point, indicating it is neither a maximum nor a minimum.
  • Conversely, if the first nonzero derivative is even, the point can be a minimum if that derivative is positive or a maximum if negative.
  • One participant expresses confusion about these classifications and inquires whether there is an empirical way to demonstrate the behavior of such points.
  • Another participant explains that functions with an odd first nonzero derivative behave like odd powers of x and do not have extrema, while those with an even first nonzero derivative behave like even powers of x and do have extrema.
  • A further contribution discusses that when the second derivative is zero but the first nonzero derivative is even, the extremum is described as a "flattened extremum."
  • Another participant introduces a mathematical approximation involving higher-order derivatives, suggesting that the behavior of the function near the point can be approximated by a power function based on the first nonzero derivative.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying interpretations of the implications of having a second derivative equal to zero, with some agreeing on the classifications of stationary points while others seek clarification or alternative demonstrations. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the best approach to demonstrate these concepts empirically.

Contextual Notes

The discussion involves assumptions about the behavior of functions near stationary points and the implications of higher-order derivatives, which may not be fully explored or agreed upon.

greg_rack
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How do I distinguish between a point of local maxima or minima, when the second derivative in that point is equal to zero?
 
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"Stationary point" means that first derivative is zero and you specify that second also is.
In that case, if the first nonzero derivative is odd (third, fifth etc.), it is neither maximum nor minimum but a stationary inflection point. If the first nonzero derivative is even (fourth, sixth etc.), the point is minimum if that derivative is positive and maximum if negative.
 
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snorkack said:
"Stationary point" means that first derivative is zero and you specify that second also is.
In that case, if the first nonzero derivative is odd (third, fifth etc.), it is neither maximum nor minimum but a stationary inflection point. If the first nonzero derivative is even (fourth, sixth etc.), the point is minimum if that derivative is positive and maximum if negative.
Got it!
That seems quite counter-intuitive... is there a way to demonstrate it "empirically", or is there just an analytical way to do it?
 
The functions where first nonzero derivative is an odd one behave like odd powers of x and don´ t have extrema. It is a stationary inflection point. The functions where first nonzero derivative is even one behave like even powers of x, and do have extrema. When second derivative is specified zero, but first nonzero derivative is even one then the extremum is a flattened extremum, but an extremum nevertheless.
 
This is more or less what snorkack said, but if you have some function ##f(x)## which has zero ##k##th derivatives for ##k\lt n##, you have ##f(x)\approx \frac{f^{(n)}(x_0)}{n!}(x-x_0)^n##. The higher order terms are dominated by the ##n##th term if ##x## is close enough to ##x_0##. So basically, in some small enough neighborhood of ##x_0##, the behavior of ##f(x)## reduces to the behavior of the power function ##\frac{f^{(n)}(x_0)}{n!}(x-x_0)^n##.
 
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