Finitely Generated Modules and Maximal Submodules

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around Proposition 6.1.2 from Paul E. Bland's book "Rings and Their Modules," specifically focusing on the application of Zorn's Lemma and the concept of inductive sets in the context of finitely generated modules and maximal submodules. Participants are exploring the necessity of demonstrating that the union of a chain of submodules is a proper submodule and its implications for upper bounds.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Peter questions the necessity of showing that the union of a chain of submodules is a proper submodule containing another submodule, suggesting it may be redundant if the largest submodule in the chain serves as an upper bound.
  • Another participant challenges Peter's assumption about the existence of a largest submodule, prompting a discussion about finite versus infinite chains of submodules.
  • Peter reflects on the finite case where a largest submodule exists, but acknowledges that in the infinite case, there may not be a largest submodule, thus necessitating the use of the union as an upper bound.
  • A later reply confirms that while the upper bound of the chain need not be in the chain itself, it must exist within the larger set of submodules.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the necessity of demonstrating that the union of submodules is a proper submodule, with some agreeing that the infinite case complicates the existence of a largest submodule. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of these points.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the distinction between finite and infinite chains of submodules and the conditions under which upper bounds exist. There are unresolved assumptions regarding the properties of chains and the nature of submodules involved.

Math Amateur
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I am reading Paul E. Bland's book, "Rings and Their Modules".

I am focused on Section 6.1 The Jacobson Radical ... ...

I need help with an aspect of Proposition 6.1.2 ... ...

Proposition 6.1.2 relies on Zorn's Lemma and the notion of inductive sets ... ... so I am providing a short note from Bland on Zorn's Lemma and inductive sets ... ... as follows:
?temp_hash=9ae88151a81f41f5b8cb4e744b816927.png

NOTE: My apologies for the poor quality of the above image - due to some over-enthusiastic highlighting of Bland's text
frown.png

Now, Proposition 6.1.2 reads as follows:

?temp_hash=9ae88151a81f41f5b8cb4e744b816927.png

Now ... in the above proof of Proposition 6.1.2, Bland writes the following:"... ... If ##\mathscr{C}## is a chain of submodules of ##\mathscr{S}##, then ##x_1 \notin \bigcup_\mathscr{C}## , so ##\bigcup_\mathscr{C}## is a proper submodule of ##M## and contains ##N##. Hence ##\mathscr{S}## is inductive ... ...My question is as follows: Why does Bland bother to show that ## \bigcup_\mathscr{C}## is a proper submodule of ##M## that contains ##N## ... presumably he is showing that any chain of submodules in ##\mathscr{S}## has an upper bound ... is that right?
... ... but why does he need to do this as the largest submodule in the chain would be an upper bound ... ... ?Hope someone can help ... ...

PeterNOTE: My apologies for not being able to exactly reproduce Bland's embellished S in the above text ...
 

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Math Amateur said:
... ... but why does he need to do this as the largest submodule in the chain would be an upper bound ... ... ?

Why would there be a largest one?
 
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micromass said:
Why would there be a largest one?
Well I was thinking of the finite case ... e.g. where for example, \mathcal{C} might be

##N'_1 \subseteq N'_2 \subseteq N'_3##

so ... ##N'_3## in this case is an upper bound on the chain ##\mathcal{C}## ... BUT ... your question me me think that my thinking does not cover the case of an infinite chain ...

In the case of an infinite chain there may be no largest submodule and so we need to have ##\bigcup_\mathcal{C} N'## as an upper bound ...Can you confirm that my thinking is now correct ...

Peter
 
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Yes.

The upper bound of ##\mathscr{C}## need not be in ##\mathscr{C}##, but is has to be in ##\mathscr{S}##.
 

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