For separable extensions, why may we argue as if they're finite?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the reasoning behind treating separable extensions as if they are finite in the context of differential fields. Participants explore the implications of this assumption, particularly in relation to the primitive element theorem and Zorn's lemma.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation, Conceptual clarification, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the "usual field-theoretic arguments" that allow the assumption of finiteness for the extension K/F.
  • Another participant suggests that the method of writing an infinite extension as a union of finite extensions is relevant to the discussion.
  • It is proposed that separability is used to apply the primitive element theorem, which states that each finite extension can be expressed in the form F(x).
  • Some participants discuss the implications of Zorn's lemma in establishing the existence of a maximal extension and the contradiction that arises if this maximal extension does not equal K.
  • There is a clarification that K/F is indeed algebraic, and some participants express uncertainty about how this relates to the assumption of finiteness.
  • Concerns are raised about the application of Zorn's lemma, particularly regarding the properties of the partially ordered set defined by the extensions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding and agreement regarding the reasoning for treating K/F as finite. Some agree on the use of Zorn's lemma and the primitive element theorem, while others question the assumptions and implications of these arguments. The discussion remains unresolved on certain points, particularly regarding the application of Zorn's lemma.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved questions about the assumptions necessary for applying Zorn's lemma and the conditions under which the maximal extension is defined. The discussion also highlights the dependence on the definitions of separability and algebraicity.

imurme8
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I'm reading the following article by Maxwell Rosenlicht:

http://www.jstor.org/stable/2318066

(The question should be clear without the article, but I present it here for reference.)

In the beginning of the article he discusses differential fields (i.e. a field [itex]F[/itex] with a map [itex]F\to F[/itex], [itex]a\mapsto a'[/itex] such that [itex](a+b)'=a'+b'[/itex] and [itex](ab)'=a'b+ab'[/itex]). He presents the result that given a differential field [itex]F[/itex] and a separable extension [itex]K/F[/itex], there exists a unique differential structure on [itex]K[/itex] that extends that on [itex]F[/itex]. After showing uniqueness quite easily, he proceeds to show existence. His first sentence toward showing existence is, "Using the usual field-theoretic arguments, we may assume that [itex]K[/itex] is a finite extension of [itex]F[/itex], so that we can write [itex]K=F(x)[/itex], for a certain [itex]x\in K[/itex]."

Of course if the extension is finite, then it is simple, so I understand the second part of the sentence. But what are the "usual field-theoretic arguments" he's referring to? It's not clear to me why we can assume that this extension is finite.

If this is too complicated to explain quickly, perhaps you could give me a reference in Dummit and Foote or an internet link.
 
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Presumably, they're referring to the method of writing an infinite extension as a union of finite extensions.

IMO it's clearest with transfinite induction; start with F and keep adjoining elements one at a time until you have all of K.

BTW, I assume K/F is supposed to be algebraic?
 
i agree with THoSE ANSWERS. by zorn there is a maximal extension. if that is not defined on all of K, add in one more element of K and use the primitive element theorem to get a further extension. contradiction to maximality.
 
Hurkyl said:
Presumably, they're referring to the method of writing an infinite extension as a union of finite extensions.

OK, I agree that an algebraic extension is a union of finite extensions. I'm not quite seeing how that allows us to argue as if [itex]K/F[/itex] is finite. (Perhaps I'm misunderstanding.)
Hurkyl said:
BTW, I assume K/F is supposed to be algebraic?

Definitely--that is explicitly stated in the article. I was under the impression that separable implied algebraic.
micromass said:
You use seperability because you want to apply the primitive element theorem. That is, you want that each finite extension has the form F(x).
Right, the primitive element theorem applies to finite extensions as I understand it. My question is why may [itex]K/F[/itex] be assumed finite.

mathwonk said:
i agree with THoSE ANSWERS. by zorn there is a maximal extension. if that is not defined on all of K, add in one more element of K and use the primitive element theorem to get a further extension. contradiction to maximality.
Sorry, maximal with respect to what property? Finiteness? I don't think that's what you mean since it seems the hypotheses of Zorn's Lemma are not satisfied (there are totally ordered subsets with no upper bound which is a finite extension).
 
Let's say you've proven it for finite extensions, then the results follows from Zorn's lemma.

Look at

[itex]\mathcal{F}=\{L~\vert~F\subseteq L \subseteq K~\text{and there is a differentiable structure on}~L\}[/itex]

This is a partially ordered set with respect to inclusion (and probably you need the differentiable structure to agree as well). By Zorn's lemma it has a maximal element. If this maximal element is different from K, then a finite extension of the maximal element contradicts the maximality.
 
micromass said:
Let's say you've proven it for finite extensions, then the results follows from Zorn's lemma.

Look at

[itex]\mathcal{F}=\{L~\vert~F\subseteq L \subseteq K~\text{and there is a differentiable structure on}~L\}[/itex]

This is a partially ordered set with respect to inclusion (and probably you need the differentiable structure to agree as well). By Zorn's lemma it has a maximal element. If this maximal element is different from K, then a finite extension of the maximal element contradicts the maximality.
Thank you! Perfect!
 

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