Forgiveness actually reduces wrongdoing?

[baywax]

But are you saying that there has never been a marriage where one person has forgiven their spouse for cheating on them?

I didn't write or say that. Some people beg their spouse to cheat on them.

Being forced into a situation against ones will is not tolerance.

But if one tolerates the situation, they are in a position where they are able to forgive it.

I would not tolerate anyone using a blowtorch on me or cleaning out my bank account. I may forgive them, but I would not permit them to do those things.

Until you experience these situations its very hard to know how you would react.

You can use those as two more examples of forgiveness without tolerance.

Not really.

There are countless examples of tolerance without forgiveness however. For example: The United States tolerated the extermination of a large group of people during the IIWW. Then, once involved, showed little mercy or forgiveness until the end of their involvement in that war.

Permissions come before an act.

Pardons are a legal suspension of proceedings such as what took place during the impeachment of President Richard Nixon. They also, like forgiveness, require tolerance.

Forgiveness is a personal "letting go" of an incident and a use of empathy and understanding when contemplating the motive and the history behind the motive (such as upbringing, past traumas, education, etc...)

 

[Huckleberry]

Sorry, I just find it funny that anyone would consider someone tying another person down and going to town on them with a blowtorch as tolerance. It would be even stranger if that person allowed such an action to take place. No sane person would say, "Hey, I think it would be a good idea for you to burn my face with that blowtorch". I can speak with some certainly that I would react defensively to anyone attempting to do such a thing to me. I would not tolerate it willingly.

The only reason most people would 'tolerate' such situations is because they have been rendered helpless already. That is not tolerance. Here is a definition of tolerate. What definition are you using?

1. to allow the existence, presence, practice, or act of without prohibition or hindrance; permit.

You describe pardons as a legal suspension of preceedings. Can you not see that I intended a different definition in my post, or do you think that by intentionally misinterpreting me that I would be confounded and agree with your theory of tolerance/forgiveness.

1. kind indulgence, as in forgiveness of an offense or discourtesy or in tolerance of a distraction or inconvenience

What is the purpose of this logic?

If I was married and my wife cheated on me I would not tolerate that, but I could forgive it eventually. The relationship would probably be over, but hopefully I would bear her no ill will.

That's not an example of an actual case. You're hypothesising having never been married and never had a wife cheat on you.

You are right that it is not a personal experience that I am talking about. But are you saying that there has never been a marriage where one person has forgiven their spouse for cheating on them?

I didn't write or say that. Some people beg their spouse to cheat on them.

I give an example and you say it doesn't apply because it didn't happen to me personally. I ask if you deny that the premise is true whether it happened to me or not. You respond by saying you never said that. So, what are you saying? Has a person ever forgiven their spouse for cheating or not? Or just skip all the run around and say why you really think it is not a valid argument.

Or not. It's not worth the time or effort to argue this way.

I do not forgive events. I forgive people. I do not forgive people to improve them in some way. I forgive people to satisfy myself, the only thing I arguably have any control over in this world.

 

[baywax]

I do not forgive events. I forgive people.

People are events.

I do not forgive people to improve them in some way. I forgive people to satisfy myself, the only thing I arguably have any control over in this world.

I see. Self-control is often considered part and parcel with tolerance and forgiveness.


If you go back and re-read my hypothetical example of a son wielding a blow torch on his parent you'll see that I am not suggesting it is a form of tolerance. I'm not sure why you keep repeating that it is tolerance. It is malevolent behavior for which one may have mustered the tolerance to forgive.

Its when a monk from the St. Francis school of christianity forgives a complete stranger using a blow torch maliciously that we are able to see a complete actualization of self-control and tolerance.

Once again I'll note that tolerance can mean surviving an incident. Not an intellectual tolerance but the actual, physical tolerance to survive or, at least, withstand a malevolent occurrence.

Its only when physical tolerance is present that forgiveness becomes an option that would otherwise not be available to one who has no physical tolerance (be it physical in the sense of psychological, physiological or otherwise).

Therefore, acts of forgiveness appear to be dependent upon the tolerance levels that have been achieved by an individual, society, and or state.

In Philosophical terms

In its Declaration on the Principles of Tolerance, UNESCO offers a definition of tolerance that most closely matches our philosophical use of the word:

"Tolerance is respect, acceptance and appreciation of the rich diversity of our world's cultures, our forms of expression and ways of being human. Tolerance is harmony in difference."

We view tolerance as a way of thinking and feeling — but most importantly, of acting — that gives us peace in our individuality, respect for those unlike us, the wisdom to discern humane values and the courage to act upon them.

I'll point out one phrase that seems to fit what I'm talking about.

"Respect for those unlike us".

If I am a peaceful and law abiding citizen and there's some malevolent terrorist following some docturn that was made up in the back of a VW in an undisclosed country, my tolerance of him and his behavior is going to help to facilitate a forgiveness of him and his actions and my reaction to those actions, don't you think? Without that respect and tolerance, the guy is in a war with me and things get worse for whomever and wherever gets in the way. If the war does take place it teaches a whole generation of children how to live at war and that its common place and its actually a way to live. So they grow up thinking war is normal with an exponential thirst for fighting and living the war that was started because of a lack of tolerance, understanding, empathy, reason, intellect and forgiving on my part.

This should show how forgiveness can actually reduce wrong doing.

 

[Rade]

Christians have been claiming they follow the moral oath ...as we forgive those that trespass against us...for 2000+ years. About 1 of 6 humans on the Earth claim to be Christians, does anyone see any reduction in "wrong doing" vis-a-vis mans inhumanity to man over this time period ? At the very least we should see a statistical trend of decreased wrong doing with increased numbers of Christians in the world over the past 2000 years--where's the beef ?

 

[baywax]

Christians have been claiming they follow the moral oath ...as we forgive those that trespass against us...for 2000+ years. About 1 of 6 humans on the Earth claim to be Christians, does anyone see any reduction in "wrong doing" vis-a-vis mans inhumanity to man over this time period ? At the very least we should see a statistical trend of decreased wrong doing with increased numbers of Christians in the world over the past 2000 years--where's the beef ?

What Christians say and what they do are completely different matters. More people have been damned and killed in the name of Christianity than any other religion.

The beef is in the action of forgiveness and it is an act that has yet to become common place. It can't be enforced by a prayer. It is enacted by a state of mind that really can only be reached through the role model and the education of a stable society.