Free time while pursuing my undergraduate degree

[whatamievendoing]

@whatamievendoing What is the nature of the family owned land where you will park your van?

Pretty sizable, my grandma has a mobile home, and it is pretty shady.

 

[whatamievendoing]

Wait, you have family at Clemson? Why do you have to live in a van on their land while you go to school? Can't you just pay a nominal rent to live in a spare room there for a year to get you a good start in your undergrad?

My grandma lives in a mobile home, and she also has a few mental issues that would make her hard to be around for extended periods. I would definitely treat her to breakfasts once a week though, because she is widowed unfortunately.

 

[jedishrfu]

My two cents...

Going to college and trying to work is fraught with a lot of pain. You simply cannot balance the two. I know this from experience.

I went to a local college to study physics. Compared to neighboring schools my highschool was behind the times. Our most advanced math course was Precalculus. It was a great course taught by a master teacher but it wasn't Calculus.

Over the summer, I learned Differential Calculus everything except the limit proofs. To me they were an unnecessary inconvenience. Fortunately, my college staggered the courses you needed to take to ensure that you would have both parts of Calculus under your belt by the time you started Introductory College Physics.

But I was working 20 hrs a week and I was in a hurry to learn more physics so I tested out of Differential Calculus. The prof was kind enough to approve after a brief test and a question on the meaning of the epsilon-delta limit proofs. That was the gotcha, I got it wrong and had to visit with him a couple of times explaining it in my own words. Finally in exasperation, I recited the book definition and he said you know I think you got it and smiled.

I thought I was pretty smart jumping ahead like that into meatier courses. I didn't care much about GPA or grades just learning. In hindsight, it would have been an easy A, and I let it pass me by.

During the first two years, I was able to glide through the important classes related to physics and math, but I was not too fond of chemistry for its afternoon 4-hour lab work. I was a commuter and tried to get all my classes in the morning so I could get the bus home in the afternoon, do some homework, and then go to work at the local Big-N department store. Big-N was a competitor to Kmart and very much like it, except we didn't have the blue light specials.

I even managed to take a few extra classes, which the college allowed without additional cost. Our college used a trimester system, with 10 weeks per trimester and three courses worth 3 and 1/3 credit hours each. Learning was very compressed. I knew of one student who doubled up taking six courses per trimester and effectively graduated with a four-year degree in two years while only paying for two years of college.

The third year, courses and homework started to get really tough and I had trouble keeping up. Each year of college is like 3 years of high school and if you don't stay on top of things or have the time to do so you will falter and fail.

My classical mechanics class (book Classical Dynamics by Marion) was taught on Mondays and Fridays. On Monday, we were given our homework for the week to be due the following Monday. I planned to wait until the weekend since I had no free time during the week which in hindsight was not a good plan.

In those days, we had no internet, only the college library, but being a commuter who worked, I had little time to go there and relied on my ability to get through the work. It always took me longer looking at whatever books I had to piece together an answer.

What made matters worse was that the Professor said, "Well, since you all are almost finished with Monday's work, here are a few more problems to be due on Monday, too." I was floored. I did my best, but I always managed to hand in my homework a few days late. The professor would tell me, "Your homework is good, its organized with clarity of thought but since it's late, I have to dock you a grade."

This pattern continued until I graduated with a low B average.

When my younger brother, who was 10 years younger than me, went to college, I told my parents that he shouldn't work because it would affect his grades. He didn't, and eventually, he got his PhD in physics. In contrast, I have a MS in Comp Sci and somehow I felt I failed in my mission. However, later while working full time managed to accrue almost enough graduate credits for an MS in Physics too.

My work allowed me to pay off my college loans six months after I graduated, but it impeded me from getting a higher academic degree like my brother did.

Please consider this story as relevant to your plan:
- working 20 hrs is too much
- no time to study / no time to play
- college gets tougher each year/people hit brick walls in their junior year
- don't skip courses you can do easily they will help your GPA
- don't work if you don't have to / it might give you 10 hours per week free time

 

[gleem]

@whatamievendoing How close will you be to the campus?

 

[whatamievendoing]

@whatamievendoing How close will you be to the campus?

Roughly 5 miles, or 15 minutes by bike.

 

[WWGD]

Bycicling back and forth for 15 minutes is certainly a good idea; fresh air, exercise, and doable year-long in the local climate. Still I worry somewhat about isolation. Give local, university clubs, groups, a chance. Or try local meetups of your liking.

 

[PeterDonis]

I figured I would be able to compare myself to others that went through a similar college degree as I would like to pursue.

One common thread I think you will find is that college will be harder than you think, even after you take into account that college will be harder than you think. Being at the top of your high school class is no guarantee of being able to make it through college easily, or at all while juggling other commitments like a job and a van conversion, particularly if you are shooting for a degree in a field like engineering.

 

[whatamievendoing]

Please consider this story as relevant to your plan:
- working 20 hrs is too much
- no time to study / no time to play
- college gets tougher each year/people hit brick walls in their junior year
- don't skip courses you can do easily they will help your GPA
- don't work if you don't have to / it might give you 10 hours per week free time

I could actually even apply some of the points you made in my high school coursework as well. I know that there are some classes that essentially are free DE 100s for a 6.0 weighted GPA, such as fundamentals of leadership, as well as sociology. Both of these can be taken at home, and would allow me to continue to take AP courses. As for the brick wall thing, I will be taking AP physics, Honors precalculus, as well as doubling up on engineering classes so I will be able to only take one engineering course my senior year. I will probably struggle a little bit to juggle all of the different workloads, however I do feel that this would be beneficial to me to properly put college workloads into perspective.

 

[whatamievendoing]

Bycicling back and forth for 15 minutes is certainly a good idea; fresh air, exercise, and doable year-long in the local climate. Still I worry somewhat about isolation. Give local, university clubs, groups, a chance. Or try local meetups of your liking.

Of course! I am sure some of my other friends will get into Clemson as well, so I won’t be starting completely from scratch. I would definitely do marching band after I finish my van build, strengthening current relationships as well as forming new connections.

 

[WWGD]

Of course! I am sure some of my other friends will get into Clemson as well, so I won’t be starting completely from scratch. I would definitely do marching band after I finish my van build, strengthening current relationships as well as forming new connections.

Good, try to preview, imagine an average week, consider potential issues and address them beforehand. How will you feed yourself, do laundry?
PS: I'm trying to help. Please let me know if I'm getting too much in your business.

 

[whatamievendoing]

Good, try to preview, imagine an average week, consider potential issues and address them beforehand. How will you feed yourself, do laundry?

There are laundromats nearby, but I will also install a 40 gallon freshwater tank that I could use for cleaning if need be. I could probably put myself on the meal plan, but I am also really fond of cooking. Most college food is pretty bad, but I was invited to an engineering camp on campus a while back, and it isn’t the worst. There are a good few mom and pop restaurants around where I will be staying as well, which usually have good food for cheap. I would install 800w solar panels that could allow me to install an induction cooktop, as well as a sizable fridge and freezer. I would most likely get a part time job after my second year to supply myself with a bit of money to sustain myself.

 

[gleem]

While it seems doable I share a concern with WWGD about your self-proclaimed introversion. Your plan just reinforces that behavior. You should be trying to overcome it, especially in this day when networking is so vital for one's professional satisfaction and success. Living with others will greatly help. Also to quote you, " I do not think money would be a huge issue, as I could always take out a loan, so really my only issue would be with time." and if time is the issue then your ADHD is problematic. As with all new experiences, there are unintended consequences that might impact your educational plans. Engineering is a good profession. Go with your strength, your academic prowess, try for scholarships, even a small one since you are niggling about $5K/year. After you graduate and get your dream job I expect you will say "What was I thinking". I know I have said that about a decision I made in grad school even though I thought I had only one choice. I also find it hard to believe your parents think this is a good idea.

 

[whatamievendoing]

PS: I'm trying to help. Please let me know if I'm getting too much in your business.

Not at all! I feel it is appropriate to ask these questions years in advance rather than on a need to know basis.

 

[jedishrfu]

I could actually even apply some of the points you made in my high school coursework as well. I know that there are some classes that essentially are free DE 100s for a 6.0 weighted GPA, such as fundamentals of leadership, as well as sociology. Both of these can be taken at home, and would allow me to continue to take AP courses. As for the brick wall thing, I will be taking AP physics, Honors precalculus, as well as doubling up on engineering classes so I will be able to only take one engineering course my senior year. I will probably struggle a little bit to juggle all of the different workloads, however I do feel that this would be beneficial to me to properly put college workloads into perspective.

You're missing my point. The brick wall is due to the level of difficulty of junior year courses where they expect you to understand these math courses fully:

- Calculus Differential(I), Integral(II) and Multiple Variable(III) courses
- Linear Algebra
- Differential Equations
- Statistics

Remember I said that each year of college is like three years of high school?

When you were a freshman in high school, could you do the work of a freshman in college?

Right now, you can't answer that because you aren't there yet and also by the time you get there it will have been three years or more.

In college, it will be as if you skipped those three years and jumped ahead, hitting a brick wall. Your level of coursework difficulty will triple, or at least the time to do it will triple, unless you prepare yourself after thoroughly learning the courses I mentioned above.

 

[whatamievendoing]

While it seems doable I share a concern with WWGD about your self-proclaimed introversion. Your plan just reinforces that behavior. You should be trying to overcome it, especially in this day when networking is so vital for one's professional satisfaction and success. Living with others will greatly help. Also to quote you, " I do not think money would be a huge issue, as I could always take out a loan, so really my only issue would be with time." and if time is the issue then your ADHD is problematic. As with all new experiences, there are unintended consequences that might impact your educational plans. Engineering is a good profession. Go with your strength, your academic prowess, try for scholarships, even a small one since you are niggling about $5K/year. After you graduate and get your dream job I expect you will say "What was I thinking". I know I have said that about a decision I made in grad school even though I thought I had only one choice. I also find it hard to believe your parents think this is a good idea.

The ADHD will definitely be a huge setback, for sure. I love nature, especially the mountains. This fact is the entire reason I would like to pursue this project. I would be about 30 minutes from my favorite state park, I could go hiking, just live in the moment. I would have a designated work station for my academics and later on, my work area (I plan on getting a remote job). I have always loved the thought of being able to go wherever I want and live my life to the fullest, whether that be in the mountains, or going home and seeing my family for a weekend. I am just imagining myself atop a mountain, me and my wife, crisp, cool air, surrounded by trees, overlooking a great big lake. Or I could even do my work with all of this in the background. I am never happier than when I am in the mountains. My parents have approved of my plan, not with “whatever makes you happy” but by openly embracing the idea. They love the thought of me gaining experience with building things, saving money, helping my grandma, and overall just doing what I love. I wouldn’t exactly call myself a complete moon loving, emo introvert, but if given the option, I usually prefer to work alone rather than in a group.

 

[whatamievendoing]

You're missing my point. The brick wall is due to the level of difficulty of junior year courses where they expect you to understand these math courses fully:

- Calculus Differential(I), Integral(II) and Multiple Variable(III) courses
- Linear Algebra
- Differential Equations
- Statistics

Remember I said that each year of college is like three years of high school?

When you were a freshman in high school, could you do the work of a freshman in college?

Right now, you can't answer that because you aren't there yet and also by the time you get there it will have been three years or more.

In college, it will be as if you skipped those three years and jumped ahead, hitting a brick wall. Your level of coursework difficulty will triple, or at least the time to do it will triple, unless you prepare yourself after thoroughly learning the courses I mentioned above.

Thank you for the clarification. I will keep all of this in mind.

 

[gleem]

I usually prefer to work alone rather than in a group.

I can appreciate that but, make this the last time you say it as it is now considered anathema, especially in industry. They want team players.

 

[jedishrfu]

That was my sentiment while in college, mainly because, being a commuter, I knew no one to talk to. I had one friend I could talk to when I could get ahold of him (pre-cell phone days). However, it was rare since I worked between 20 to 30 hours per week doing extra hours on the weekend when seasonal shopping was high.

There was one instance when the eight students in my EM theory class got together to divide up 50 questions the professor gave. He said he and his secretary would pick five from the list for our test. Yikes!

We all got together and divvied up the list, writing solutions and then making Xerox copies to share with the others. As it happened, I got the ones related to Special Relativity because of my interest in that topic.

On test day, we sat down to answer the questions. They were all pretty straightforward except the last two, which were the Special Relativity questions. I did well that day, perhaps better than I desired, all through working in a group and getting lucky.

But really, the group dynamic made a big job a lot shorter, and I wished I could have done it in other classes instead of going it alone. However, being a commuter with no presence on campus and no time due to work, I struggled beyond what other students did.

The one bright side was that I paid off my loans within six months of graduation, owing about $7.80 in interest charges because I asked a week too late to get a loan payoff number.

 

[berkeman]

Pretty sizable, my grandma has a mobile home, and it is pretty shady.

So if living/sleeping out of a van on your grandmother's property is an option, you might consider just buying a van that is already meant to be used for casual camping. One of my best friends when I started working as an EE in Silicon Valley was an avid rock climber who basically drove to Yosemite from Silicon Valley every weekend to climb. He had one of these Volkswagen Vanagon vans (I think a Westfalia):

Have you looked at purchasing a used camping van like these?

BTW, when I was in undergrad at UC Davis in Norcal I lived on-campus in the dorms the first 2 years, but for the last 2 years, I lived in off-campus apartments with roommates. So for those last 2 years, I commuted via bicycle to campus at similar distances to what you are planning. It was fine in good weather (but be sure to use lights when riding in the dawn/dusk/dark), but required pretty extensive rain gear during the rainy months. I don't know if you have snow at Clemson, but that would add another dimension.

EDIT/ADD -- Even if your grandmother situation is a bit dicey, does she have any utility hookups that you can share? Mostly I'm wondering if she has cable service and a cable modem. If she does, you might be able to connect to her WiFi if your van is not parked too far away.

 

[WWGD]

So if living/sleeping out of a van on your grandmother's property is an option, you might consider just buying a van that is already meant to be used for casual camping. One of my best friends when I started working as an EE in Silicon Valley was an avid rock climber who basically drove to Yosemite from Silicon Valley every weekend to climb. He had one of these Volkswagen Vanagon vans (I think a Westfalia):

View attachment 350517

Have you looked at purchasing a used camping van like these?

BTW, when I was in undergrad at UC Davis in Norcal I lived on-campus in the dorms the first 2 years, but for the last 2 years, I lived in off-campus apartments with roommates. So for those last 2 years, I commuted via bicycle to campus at similar distances to what you are planning. It was fine in good weather (but be sure to use lights when riding in the dawn/dusk/dark), but required pretty extensive rain gear during the rainy months. I don't know if you have snow at Clemson, but that would add another dimension.

EDIT/ADD -- Even if your grandmother situation is a bit dicey, does she have any utility hookups that you can share? Mostly I'm wondering if she has cable service and a cable modem. If she does, you might be able to connect to her WiFi if your van is not parked too far away.

Some today include TV, fridge, etc. Gives new meaning to sleeping in your car/van.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Let's not get caught up in the vanfasty.

Housing is $8200/year. $33K for 4 years.

The cheapest van with a bath sold by Winnebago is $180K, of which $40K is the chassis. The nest one can hope for is $20K for a used chassis, $13K for the hardware (bed, fridge, toilet, sink. etc.) and the rest labor. That would just barely break even.

That leaves, at best, $127K in labor. Assuming the Winnebago workers get $50/hour, that's 2500+ hours. That is over 15 months of full-time work: 8 hours a day, while the OP is taking classes.

If instead the OP got a job, even ay a McDonalds, and earned $12-13/hour for the same time period, he will have made enough for housing. And these are the most favorable numbers possible for living out of a van - anything more realistic will tilt things even more towards living in the dorms.

 

[berkeman]

Let's not get caught up in the vanfasty.

Housing is $8200/year. $33K for 4 years.

The cheapest van with a bath sold by Winnebago is $180K, of which $40K is the chassis. The nest one can hope for is $20K for a used chassis, $13K for the hardware (bed, fridge, toilet, sink. etc.) and the rest labor. That would just barely break even.

Used Vanagons are about $20k. Shower at the campus gym (or sneak into the coed dorms (that's where I lived my first 2 years)).

Spoiler

I don't know if they have Coed dorms in the midwest. UC Davis is in Cali.

 

[Vanadium 50]

A Vanagon has no bathroom. If you're going to live somewhere where you need to sneak into a bathroom, why not go all the way and pitch a tent?

 

[berkeman]

https://www.smartservice.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/porta-potty.png

 

[WWGD]

Used Vanagons are about $20k. Shower at the campus gym (or sneak into the coed dorms (that's where I lived my first 2 years)).

Spoiler

I don't know if they have Coed dorms in the midwest. UC Davis is in Cali.

Clemson is in one of the Carolinas.

 

[berkeman]

Clemson is in one of the Carolinas.

Is that a good thing or a bad thing? I'm kind of geography challenged.

 

[WWGD]

Is that a good thing or a bad thing? I'm kind of geography challenged.

Weather is relatively mild, winters aren't too harsh.

 

[gleem]

@berkeman said "Even if your grandmother situation is a bit dicey, does she have any utility hookups that you can share?" I hope so since you do not want to deal with propane for heating and cooking. I've looked up the livable space for a van that you might convert and it is about 10 ft long, 5.7 ft wide, and maybe 6.5 ft high, 57 sq ft of floor space. of which about 14 sq feet for the toilet (Ok skip the shower and and save 6 sq ft using the Uni's gym),12 sq ft for the bed, 2.5 sq for the fridge 2.5 sq ft for the stove, 7 sq ft for the sink/counter, 15 sq ft for the isle, and 4 sq ft for a work/study area. Guests? good luck. And then there are regs for campers to make them legal. Try living in a space smaller than half as big as a normal bedroom. I see insulation as a problem so just crank up the environment system. This will be a challenge for the most organized OCD person.

 

[WWGD]

Maybe a Tinyhouse would be better? Not sure about the pricing.

 

[Muu9]

AP Physics 1 and 2 are no good for engineering, if you want credit you will need to take physics C which requires calculus as a corequisite.

Look here at the curriculum flow chart and see which classes you can knock out via APs (e.g. AP Chem junior year instead of AP Physics 1/2 in order to get CH 1010 credit, or get a 5 in either AP English to get credit for ENGL 1030)

This would allow you to take some of the later math classes earlier, leaving your upper years less intense than they would be otherwise