Freewill - the nature of our birth

[Dezepar]

You are free to draw a triangle. Provided you give it three sides.

Originally Posted by Kerrie
how am i dependent on other beings for exitence? i may depend on my employer to provide me with a job for money, but i have the freewill to earn my own money by whatever means necessary-whether it be legal or not...i may depend on others to build me a home, however, i have the freewill to build or live where i want-regardless if it is safe or not...

I may have a low post count, but I've been around for quite a while and have read quite a few of your posts Kerrie. And I agree with them the majority of the time. But Mentat hit it square on the head.

Originally Posted by Mentat
Yet are you not also dependent on many other beings, to continue your existence?

With all due respect, I wasn't impressed with this thought.
Just try to remove all "others" for even 12 hours. Watch the quality of life rapidly decend. If not cease.

 

[olde drunk]

Dezepar - if i may?

i submit that you can exist alone, if you so chose. the fact that it would be uncomfortable or distasteful would lead you to change your decision.

i often wonder if there are 'lost souls' that have chosen to be alone until they were able to sort out their particular problems. are the highly psychotic individuals 'lost souls'? have they chosen to be alone?

no answers, just different perspective.

love&peace,
olde drunk

 

[Kerrie]

I may have a low post count, but I've been around for quite a while and have read quite a few of your posts Kerrie. And I agree with them the majority of the time. But Mentat hit it square on the head.

Originally Posted by Mentat
Yet are you not also dependent on many other beings, to continue your existence?

With all due respect, I wasn't impressed with this thought.
Just try to remove all "others" for even 12 hours. Watch the quality of life rapidly decend. If not cease.

yes, the quality of my life would decrease, no argument there because humanity in general depends on society in modern times to lead a better quality of life...mentat asked if i am dependent on other beings to continue my existence, and my answer is no, not ultimately, however-yes to live comfortably. if mentat asked me if i was dependent on others to have existed, i would have to answer yes, as my mother and father were needed in order for me to have been conceived

 

[Dayle Record]

Try this.

The egg and the sperm, are two elaborate software programs that interact, and create a newer version, that has both good and faulty attributes of both of the old programs. When the new hardware is delivered, the two older flesh hardware programs interact with the new, and try to awaken in it the better parts of their old programming, that is if they are good at that sort of thing.
The aims of these flesh machines are as varied as the causes for sharing software.

The new hardware is very computer support dependent for sometime. In that era of vulnerability it must interact with the two older programs, until it is able to establish an independent power source for its stand alone system.

By this time, the OS of the new product is a total mishmash of old programs that need to be clean sweeped periodically to leave the new equipment with enough operating space to negotiate on the internet and take on newer software that it chooses, to facilitate. These internal processes run in quiet mode outside the understanding of the older hardware; whose old OS's are so full of files they have little room for new data that is not significant to their operations.

Despite constant defragging attempts by the older versions, the new hardware, finds empty spots in its own programming, and seeks new bits to fill them from fresh sources, depending on the fit of the new data, and its usefulness. The new OS forms and protects its files, and seeks preferred host sites, for queries and data needs.

It becomes more and more apparent to the new system, as time goes on, that the old host systems are too simple, and full of useless data, for the current time frame. Those old systems cling to outdated programs, because they do not have the ram needed to run the new stuff. Pretty soon the new hardware is hanging out in internet cafés and checking out the software on that new hardware it has just met, and then it makes the leap to a full time connection elsewhere.

It only has free will in this context. It can only choose from what is there to be chosen from, vs the factory of origin. There are a lot of choices but until it drops the cable and goes with full WiFi, it is limited, and even with WiFi, it still has to deal with hardware issues. The nature of the hardware, and its working environment, determines the ultimate potential of the system.

 

[Royce]

Olde drunk, needless to say you are not the first or only one to think or believe or know this truth. I read some time ago that one of the questions that a Buddhist master asks of his students is;"Have you seen, do you know your face before you where born." I have tried but not yet succeeded in seeing my true face before I was born.

I have heard or read many others that say that we choose our parents and
our life before we are born in this life. I can't say that I have experienced it personally nor do I remember it; but, I do believe, if not know, it to be true.

John Bradshaw alluded to something like this too. The fact that he too was/is an old drunk, alcoholic, baffled him at first until he realized that he had to experience that to enable him to know the truth about families, especially about dysfunctional families. So his being a drunk was a choice, his choice and a necessary one to allow him to help so many people through their family baggage that still gives them trouble as adults.

This thinking leads to our ultimate responsibility for our own lives and that there is a purpose to everything that happens in our lives. Not is this not only empowering, it also frees us from guilt, shame, blame and anger or worse rage. Of course if we can no longer blame our parents, society or circumstances for our trouble, we then must accept our responsibility for our own troubles and weaknesses.

However, acceptance is the first step in letting go. As long as we blame someone or something else we have no reason to let go and nothing to let go of. Thus, we are doomed to carry this crippling baggage around with us until we do finally accept that it as our choices that made/make it so.

 

[Dezepar]

Originally Posted by Kerrie

yes, the quality of my life would decrease,

Originally Posted by olde drunk

i submit that you can exist alone,

My first point:
At what point during life quality reduction does it fall outside the parameters of human defined living/existence? For example: A permanently comatose person with reduction to vital mechanical, and basic motor skills is by strict definition, living. However the subject's awareness of its existence is null. (Speculation of course) Although an extreme example, it can apply to milder circumstances that might be associated with complete interactive deprivation as well. Secondly, I offer the notion that the quality of your life would continue to decrease until it reduced to zero. (Physical beings or otherwise, which would ultimately require the concept of existence to be redefined.) Therefore, number 1, not maintaining the balance normally associated with the concept of living, and 2, inevitable non-existence, which is clearly not continuing to exist. I tend to believe that interaction is a vital component of the basic human survival pack. If I've assumed your definition of "existence" incorrectly Kerrie, please guide me.
olde drunk, for this train of thought, try accepting the removal of others as a constant or unchangeable property and then apply your above quoted point of view to it. (Realizing of course that your belief is rooted in you being in the drivers seat of your existence.)

 

[olde drunk]

First, Dezepar, your points are valid that the quality of life would be very poor if we were alone. Please bear in mind that it is my suspicion that we (our spiritual selves) saw an opportunity for a new or different experience in the physical world and chose it enmasse. Now, within that framework we are each attending to a personal agenda. I like to say that we are in this world "alone, together OR together, alone". Meaning that we are in the 'drivers seat' for our personal experience and choose to do it with others; we help them and they help us.

Secondly, perhaps a little historical information will help understand my position. Being born into rather dire circumstances (who wasn't after the great depression, so no big deal) with strong religious influences, I was greatly disappointed with the way my life had gone for the first 25-26 years. I was big into sci-fi and stumbled onto books about Edgar Cayce. This was a very religious man that was clairvoyant . That was an introduction into reincarnation.

Books like The Source by Michener(sp?), Don Juan by Castenada followed. It was also the dawning of the age of aquarius LOL. So, trying to understand how my life wasn't going the way i wanted, I sought an explanation that fit what had happened. I use all the new information and shuffled the deck.

Without time, all lives are simultaneous. So, really reincarnation isn't that far fetched. But, to understand where I am at a given point in this life I need to look at past decisions. Once started, you get a glimmer of understanding AND need to decide, how far back does this go? Well, happy to say, when I accepted the responsibility for the conditions of my birth, everything fell into place. I had found my personal holy grail. Again, this was not overnight. After 35-40 years of exploration, I understand the first 25 years.

Now, this does not enable me to predict my future. But, it does give much more power to decide which future to experience. Maybe an oriental monk could explain this power after years of meditation. i did not and do not have time or inclination for that type of inner exploration. I enjoy too many of our vices.

So, let's accept who and what we are (and our neighbors) with the knowledge that we will make a better today.

Oh, Royce, I love buddhism. A very peaceful way. Unfortunately, with my western style of living, I am unable to integrate it's disciplines into my life. There is a lot there and I do meditate and think about many of their insights. As for my face prior to birth? I never tried. I'll get back to ya.

Maybe, Dezepar should start a separate thread on being alone. Hey, there are all those aliens and spirits that walk with us daily. I guess we can never be truly alone.

love&peace,
olde drunk

 

[Royce]

Oh, Royce, I love buddhism. A very peaceful way. Unfortunately, with my western style of living, I am unable to integrate it's disciplines into my life. There is a lot there and I do meditate and think about many of their insights. As for my face prior to birth? I never tried. I'll get back to ya.
olde drunk

I too am a westerner of German decent. You don't need to integrate it's disciplines into your life only it's thinking into your mind; bt, from what I have read of yours posts, you already have.

As to being alone, we can never be truly alone either physically or spiritually.
Biologically life cannot and does not exist alone but must exist in an ecology that allows and supportsa life, such as a biosphere as is earth. It takes many different organisms to sustain life for one organism such as ourselves. Spiritually, we are never nor can we ever be alone as we are all part of the One. If we ever think that we are alone it is simply an illusion. We can delude ourselves temporarily into thinking that we are alone and are alone responsible and self relient for our existence; but this is just illusion and denial. The old adage that no man is an island is absolutely true no matter how you may interpret it.

 

[Dezepar]

Originally Posted by Royce

As to being alone, we can never be truly alone either physically or spiritually.
Biologically life cannot and does not exist alone but must exist in an ecology that allows and supportsa life, such as a biosphere as is earth. It takes many different organisms to sustain life for one organism such as ourselves. Spiritually, we are never nor can we ever be alone as we are all part of the One. If we ever think that we are alone it is simply an illusion. We can delude ourselves temporarily into thinking that we are alone and are alone responsible and self relient for our existence; but this is just illusion and denial. The old adage that no man is an island is absolutely true no matter how you may interpret it.

You've caputured my convoluted point perfectly Royce. I couldn't agree more.

 

[Royce]

You've caputured my convoluted point perfectly Royce. I couldn't agree more.

Glad I could help and that we agree. This in itself is unusual, that anyone here at PF finds someone that they agree with.

 

[dschouten]

loseyourname, good point, however, how can a fetus have any sort of "free will" when they are dependent upon another being to survive?

Who isn't dependant up another being to survive? I have yet to find an autonomous being on this planet.