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Freewill - the nature of our birth

  1. Jun 30, 2004 #1
    I hope that I have chosen the proper forum for this thread.

    In other threads I have stated that within freewill we chose our birth and it’s environments. Now, I would like to offer a small insight, which may make this concept more acceptable.

    I am sure that in pre-adolescence and adolescence (when we want to be and look cool to our peers) we all stood before the mirror and complained about this and that flaw. “Why was I born with such ugly hair”?

    Now, if I say that I chose my body-type and it’s attributes before birth, I completely change the dynamics of the situation. I no longer blame god or my parents (wrong genes for this time period, lol). I accept responsibility for my situation, which leads to accepting self. The thought process is, ‘ok, what did I want to learn – experience by not having socially acceptable hair’?

    Aren’t psychiatrists and psychologists looking for ways to have their clients ‘accept themselves’? With this small shift of perspective, we can understand that we are, what we are supposed to be. We can accept ourselves AND then, love ourselves. We can not be contributing to society if we do not love our neighbor. We can not love our neighbor, if we do not, first love ourselves.

    We chose our parents, with their agreement, and the time, place and manner of our birth for a personal spiritual reason. While we have freewill, we also agree to the rules of physicality prior to birth.

    Let us know what you think, after you look back and change you view of an unwanted event or experience.

    Love&peace,
    olde drunk
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Jul 1, 2004 #2
    Well, olde drunk, you know I likes yer style, but the whole free will concept falls apart when looked at objectivly..

    Now, I do not say there is no free will, I say there is a distinction between one's free or interpretative will and true will...

    I mean, Olde Drunke, we cannot free will away that which is true will. And by true will, I mean our collective wills, like, we grow from child into adult, or we have brown eyes, or we want food, we want to mate, those kind of things...

    these are not 'free', they cannot be 'free willed' away. they are 'true will' with many different interpretations...free will is subjective, true will is objective..

    your proposition only works if one accepts it. true will works if we accept it or not.

    we have a very limited realm of what can happen inside of free will. this free will can expand the more society learns to honor individual soverineity and accept the true will discovered by methods of science..
     
  4. Jul 1, 2004 #3

    loseyourname

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    I still have to wonder what exactly aborted fetuses and miscarriages wanted from their lives if they indeed chose their fate.
     
  5. Jul 1, 2004 #4

    Kerrie

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    loseyourname, good point, however, how can a fetus have any sort of "free will" when they are dependent upon another being to survive?
     
  6. Jul 1, 2004 #5
    i am not sure i understand your differentiation. i did say at the end that upon entering into this world we agree to it's laws. also, by selecting our parents we select the physical attributes we want for our life.

    even tho we want to eat, mate, etc. we are still free to choose hunger or celibacy (lol).

    please expand your definition of 'true will'. IMHO, all will is subjective because it must pass thru my filters and opinions. whether i bend to science or not is a matter of my willingness to accept or reject any finding. also, how can science measure will and define it's qualities??

    agreeing to social mores and laws, is still a matter of choice. OR, do i miss your point?

    love & peace,
    olde drunk
     
  7. Jul 1, 2004 #6
    I don’t recall much prior to my birth. In fact, I don’t recall anything at all. For me there exists no compelling reason to believe I made a conscious decision. To agree with you on this matter would require acceptance of too great an assumption.
    Anyway, what do you mean by environment of birth?
    To be honest, I did not see insight making the concept more acceptable. This is because the word ‘acceptable’, to me, equates more to validation for holding the view than demonstration of some possible benefit gained after the fact.
     
  8. Jul 2, 2004 #7
    please bear in mind that our shared reality is agreed to by all participants in the reality beyond our physical world.

    how do we know when a fetus is a conscious being??? let's not get lost in all the debates surrounding the abortion issue.

    so, an agreement has been made for little drunk to born. during the pregnancy, the parents activate a different time - probability line that would not serve purpose little drunk wanted. so he simply decides to not be born. no harm, no foul. OR, the parents wanted to work out something within their relationship that required a miscarriage.

    our shared reality is a co-operative effort.

    love & peace,
    olde drunk
     
  9. Jul 4, 2004 #8
    Well 'scientists' disagree on the validity of age regression thru hypnosis. So what do we do?? how do we reconcile dissenting views? IMHO, take the conclusion that expands, rather than limits, my experience. Try looking at your reality with this change for awhile, if it works, great. If not, forget- a - bout - it !

    While you do not remember anything prior to birth, can you remember a time when you didn't exist???

    love&peace,
    olde drunk
     
  10. Jul 12, 2004 #9
    Accept what you cannot change, and change what you cannot accept
     
  11. Jul 13, 2004 #10
    I am a determinist. Your language is interesting.

    First, here is my simple explanation for determinism. I watch my self make what is called decision in two ways. The first is spur of the moment decision. I make a decision without any cause. What really happens is that I have forgotten or am unaware of what is the cause of the decision I watched happen. The second is I am watching my mind use of memories to reason. I watch my determined decisions like I watch the physics of a game of pool, only it's going on in my head, and the players are Mr. Objective the Environment and Mr. Subjective the circumstantial position of brain cells and location of memories.

    Looking back on changing things. I blame my parents. They blame their parents. So on. Blame has negative connotation, so I'll take the essential from it. It's cause. I was formed by them. They caused me. Did they choose? No. They watch everything happen, just like I do.

    Although, there may be somethings I may blame them for, I think that's what makes humans great. Humans have evolved, because they blamed there parents continually for things that were unfair. If it weren't for our continual correction over time, humans would have never evolved. We're big time blamers, because we're determined to correct. Just watch yourself try harder. There is nothing we can do about it. Did we choose to evolve? No. We're just in the right place at the right time, just like those thoughts that become decisions.

    So, I think I can blame in a positive way. We all have our responsibilites. We have to do better than they did. But, we're determined. Who would purposely do something wrong, when they truely understood what was right? That would be stupid. If you really know what was right, you don't do wrong. You can't choose to be stupid when your smart.

    Choice means to watch physics.
     
  12. Jul 14, 2004 #11
    IF it is all pre-programmed, why bother??? this confuses me. no matter what i do, it was meant to be?? how? it is illogical for me and i would be depressed to believe i was trapped in a bio-chem-physics reality. this is too limiting!! also, each decision is not limited to 2 options.

    blame, what a waste of energy! who cares what someone else did??

    ok, now i see the hang-up! you do not want to be responsible! you are at the mercy of what has been done to you and what has been chosen for you, by the sciences. no matter what, if you decide on a particular lover, and the raltionship fails, it was that damn, nasty chemical reaction. if the lover gets killed, it's the law of physics.

    sorry, for me, it has been extremely liberating to accept the idea that i have chosen all aspects of my life (the good, bad & ugly). it is enpowering! from that perspective i can change anything and everything that i don't like. again, within the scientific rules we accepted prior to birth.

    i choose to be my own master. even wrong decisions were necessary for my personal evolution. ah, you say? "it is predetermined!" NO! there are an infnite number of ways to evolve. i will choose a path or manner that is unique to me. learning about physics or truth or life can only be learned through experience. i choose to seek my path, not something chosen for me.

    love&peace,
    olde drunk
     
  13. Jul 14, 2004 #12

    selfAdjoint

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    There was a young man who said Damn!
    It's borne in upon me that I am
    An engine which moves
    In determinate grooves
    I'm not even a bus! I'm a tram!
     
  14. Jul 15, 2004 #13

    Siv

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    Well, pre-programmed does not mean that we're like clockwork ... we're not.
    And we do make choices and decisions ... so to that extent, we do have free-will.

    However, our decisions are not totally random or "free". They are constrained by a lot of things. One can, with enough knowledge, predict a probability curve of responses, for eg. So yes, to that extent, our behaviour is predetermined.

    That does not mean that we dont hold anyone responsible for their actions. Of course we do. Because holding them responsible for their actions and consequences becomes, by itself, a parameter of their environment, which would affect their behaviour.

    Before conception, we are a sperm and an ova. Neither of which has the apparatus to "choose its parents, the time, place and manner of birth".
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2004
  15. Jul 15, 2004 #14
    Yet are you not also dependent on many other beings, to continue your existence?
     
  16. Jul 15, 2004 #15
    sorry, i was NOT a sperm and ova prior to birth. I BELIEVE that i am a spiritual being that chose to have my consciousness enter the fetus that resulted from the fertilization.

    do you BELIEVE that you are ONLY your body??? isn't your MIND greater that your brain?? why limit your thinking about your whole being??

    all i am suggesting is that we look at our experiences from a different angle. no one can really prove anything about consciousness, it can only be experienced. using this perspective i have seen (understood the experiences) how i have manipulated my reality and i find that helps lead a better life.

    try it. what have you got to lose?? being responsible is enpowering!

    love&peace,
    olde drunk
     
  17. Jul 15, 2004 #16

    selfAdjoint

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    Let's cut to the chase; consider a zygote, a single fertilized new cell. The Catholic church says it's a person, capable of sin. But I can't see how a single cell can have free will; this is close to the manufactured bacteria that is the goal of several current research teams (admittedly there's an order of magnitude or more in size and complexity between a bacterial cell and a eukayotic one). Leaving out theories where "everything is conscious" how can this almost obviously mechanical thing have free will?
     
  18. Jul 15, 2004 #17

    loseyourname

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    What drunk seems to be saying isn't that the cell itself has any free will, but rather that the cell's spirit self that will eventually inhabit the fully grown human that the cell will become is capable of controlling the circumstances of the cell's and eventual human's life.
     
  19. Jul 15, 2004 #18
    Olde drunk
    I am having severe trouble trying to understand this. I must be confused in a semantic way. When you say "we chose our parents" do you mean we had others to choose from? Are our spirit selves able to recall this agreement but keep it a secret from our conscious selves. I think a lot of people out there might feel as if their spirit made a pretty crappy choice and left them to deal with it. Do you know why you chose the way you did? Are you saying that freewill does not exist in our physical universe but it does exist for our spirit?
     
  20. Jul 15, 2004 #19
    let's exclude the consciousness of our cells; the cells of my heart, brain, etc have their consciousness and do their job well. I am not the cells of my body. the cells, within their consciousness, agree to cooperate so that i have a physical body. i am, also, NOT my body.

    i am saying, that MY consciousness chooses to enter the new body within an agreement with the parents. All three agree in advance that they will share an experience; each for their own reason.

    believe it or not, when you begin to look at experience from this perspective, you will lose your belief in sin. there is no sin. granted, there are better ways to live a life, but it is a subjective 'better'.

    love&peace,
    olde drunk
     
  21. Jul 15, 2004 #20
    i am saying, hooray for freewill.

    see my prior post. we and our parents agreed to share a life experience.

    no, i do not recall making the decision. Very interesting, though, i had a very crappy childhood and was confused and, to a degree, angry. it was hell after my father abandoned the family. Within catholicism we are told to have faith, god has a reason. as long as the 'cause' was external, i was at the mercy of god and/or the whims of people in higher positions.

    about 40 years ago i began thinking that this 'have faith' idea was nonsense. it all began to make sense, to me, when i looked at the trials and tribulations from the perspective that i wanted to experience poverty, abuse, etc. Those experiences influenced my initiative, imagination and drive to go beyond, what appeared to be limitations.

    please understand, i do not believe that I am separate from my spirit. I (the total me) chose my parents. Isn't it easier to forgive them of whatever failings they have because you wanted to experience a reality with parents that had those particular flaws? i never had a catch with my father, i never said no to my son (yeah i cry every time i see the end of 'field of dreams'). do you see how we operate on many levels?

    lastly, from this perspective we can also 'lighten' the nature of our lives. once you put yourself in charge, life becomes a game. we lose any sense of victimhood or powerlessness.

    as i have said, just think about it. You might even change your past events with this different view. If you need an ecclesiastical or academic authority to understand life, this won't work.

    love&peace,
    olde drunk
     
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